Stolen Arms To Indian Tribes.

[Dispatch]

You've seen this scenario often in Westerns/Documentaries on TV and in the movies. The question is in reality, how often did this actually happen that arms were stolen to supply Indian tribes and how were theses arms payed for by the tribes? 

[Fox Creek Kid]

Believe it or not, the gov't actually gave arms to Indians as part of treaty "booty", albeit no repeaters to hostile tribes. Also, many White or half breed traders vended arms. Caddo George at the Wichita Agency was famous for selling guns to the Comanches & Kiowas. Also, the Comancheros sold or traded arms to them, Jose Tafoya being prominent. Then as now a far less complicated method was merely to kill someone for their weapons. 

[Dispatch]

It makes you wonder though, how frequent did an actual Army shipment of rifles get stolen and then get 'traded' to the tribes? Or stolen outright by the tribes.  If it did, I figured they would have had to wipe out an entire company of Cavalry to get the rifles. I haven't read in true novels and letters from troops, the mention of this happening.

[St. George]

It didn't.

It was just a convenient plot device for the novelists and the Silver Screen.

Surrendered Indian weapons were turned in were inventoried.

There were various US-owned weapons taken in battle, of course - they were traceable - but the preponderance were civilian-owned, acquired through killing and through purchase or trade.

One of my references cites the weaponry by type, condition, and when present - by serial number, and when I get home, I'll see what I can do about scanning it.

I also think that 'Man At Arms'  or 'The Gun Report' did a review of these firearms, a long time ago.

Remember - these were weapons 'surrendered' upon a band's eventual arrival at the various Reservations - no doubt the very best were cached, but we'll never know.

The Indian was 'hard' on his weapons - the reports bear this out by citing various missing pieces and repairs, and having owned and handled a large number of originals over time, I've found this to be true.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Daniel Nighteyes]

The Indian was 'hard' on his weapons - the reports bear this out by citing various missing pieces and repairs, and having owned and handled a large number of originals over time, I've found this to be true.

Also consider that (1) they seldom got their hands on a brand-new weapon, and (2) they didn't have much ability to replace or upgrade the ones they had.  They had to make do with what they could get, and keep them in operation as long as possible.

It would also be good to remember that hard, refined metals were scarce, so certain "unnecessary" metal parts were commonly removed and re-purposed. A good example would be rifle butt-plates.  They were removed and used as scrapers and so forth.  If replaced at all, rawhide or other leather was used.  Barrel bands were also frequently removed/re-purposed, and replaced with soft wire or leather strips.

[Shotgun Franklin]

After the Custer disaster, many of the warriors involved picked up Army Weapons then, according to what I've read, they threw most of them away because they knew if they were caught with'm it was a death sentence. One Custer SAA was found miles north of the battle site and is well documented. It was found in the bottom of a wash where someone had tossed it.
Now after The War Of Northern Agression the gun market completely bottomed out. Many companies failed, like Spencer. You could for years buy brand new in the grease issue guns for nearly nothing. I doubt that there was much need to steal when you could buy a wagon load of guns for a few bucks. As recently as WWII movie companies could buy new surplus guns to use in movies, why use a prop when you can get the real thing?

[Fox Creek Kid]

...I doubt that there was much need to steal when you could buy a wagon load of guns for a few bucks...

Muskets and other assorted ML'ers were cheap. However, repeaters were not. The military did not release Spencers for sale to the general public until the early 1870's, at last five years after the war. Spencer offered their arms to the public, but surprisingly few sold. A Henry or early '66 was not cheap on the other hand, retailing at circa. $40 when many were lucky to make $20 a month then.

By the mid 1860's and beyond anyone smart who ventured out West wanted a repeater or else they travelled in a large armed group. Quite simply, in order to own a repeater you had to fork out the money or join the cavalry in the mid to late 1860's. 

[Montana Slim]

I believe it was Winchester who bought out the Spencer Company, then let it dry on the vine....reducing the competition so to speak.

Primary indian weapons were muzzleloading muskets, rifles and shotguns, early Sharps cartridge carbines and springfield rifles (50-70). often with shortend barrels and/or stocks.....mix in a few 1866 ( a favorite) and 1873s with a sprinkling of percussion revolvers. Naturally, it depends on the specific year to which one inquires.

I gather these impressions from visiting the collection of captured indian weapons on display, and documented at the Rock Island Arsenal Museum.

Regards,
Slim

[FEATHERS]

Howdy Shotgun,I watched a doco on the history channel about the Little Big Horn,I think the guy doing all the digging & such was named Fox.So they find all of these spent shells at one spot & the firing marks on them are the same as more they found about 1 mile away,he concluded that the 1st spot was a troopers position & his weapon was picked up by a warrior using it to shoot from the 2nd position.But this is what got me was that he got permission from the Smithonion to fire a rifle they have supposedly from the LBH & the firing marks matched the ones from the battlefield,very interesting stuff.Feathers.

[St. George]

What you saw was the story of the big archaeological dig after brushfires effectively burned away all the underlying vegetation on the Custer battlefield in 1984 and 1985.

It was an amazing dig - using civilian metal detectorists coupled with archaeologists to thoroughly map out and explore the entire battlefield, and much was discovered and even identified - even the remains of Mitch Bouyer, Custer's mixed-blood scout.

Read: 'Archaeological Perspectives on the Battle of the Little Big Horn- by Scott, Fox, Conner and Harmon.

Also read:  "Archaeological Insights into the Custer battle - An Assessment of the 1984 Field Season' - by Scott and Harmon.

In them, you'll see that individual weapons were able to be tracked forensically throughout the battlefield as troopers ran for their lives and were pursued by the Sioux.

The Sioux weren't picking up those carbines until they were prying them from dead hands - and many of them were inoperable due to stuck cartridge cases swelling in the chambers of their weapons.

There was no 'death penalty' for having a military-issued weapon.

I strongly recommend the reading of these books for a better idea of what had really happened on June 25, 1876.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[FEATHERS]

Thank you St George,I will look for those items you mentioned,like I said very interesting stuff.Feathers

[Will Ketchum]

What you saw was the story of the big archaeological dig after brushfires effectively burned away all the underlying vegetation on the Custer battlefield in 1984 and 1985.

It was an amazing dig - using civilian metal detectorists coupled with archaeologists to thoroughly map out and explore the entire battlefield, and much was discovered and even identified - even the remains of Mitch Bouyer, Custer's mixed-blood scout.

Read: 'Archaeological Perspectives on the Battle of the Little Big Horn- by Scott, Fox, Conner and Harmon.

Also read:  "Archaeological Insights into the Custer battle - An Assessment of the 1984 Field Season' - by Scott and Harmon.

In them, you'll see that individual weapons were able to be tracked forensically throughout the battlefield as troopers ran for their lives and were pursued by the Sioux.

The Sioux weren't picking up those carbines until they were prying them from dead hands - and many of them were inoperable due to stuck cartridge cases swelling in the chambers of their weapons.

There was no 'death penalty' for having a military-issued weapon.

I strongly recommend the reading of these books for a better idea of what had really happened on June 25, 1876.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

One of those "metal detectorists" was a friend of mine.  He is one of the best know experts with a metal detector in the world.  He has some interesting stories about the dig.

Will Ketchum

[Delmonico]

A lot of the forensic work was done at Nebraska State Patrol labs here in Lincoln.  A fella St. George and I know did a lot of the cartridge identification.

[Shotgun Franklin]

There was no 'death penalty' for having a military-issued weapon.

You want to be a Plains NDN captured with a 'Custer' gun in the late 1870's.

[FEATHERS]

G'Day Will,Has your friend got any published info on the dig that I could look up?I am looking into the info that St George suggested,this is a really interesting topic for me & I would like to find out as much as I can bout this dig or any other investigations that where done at the LBH,thanks Feathers

[Will Ketchum]

G'Day Will,Has your friend got any published info on the dig that I could look up?I am looking into the info that St George suggested,this is a really interesting topic for me & I would like to find out as much as I can bout this dig or any other investigations that where done at the LBH,thanks Feathers

I don't know.  I haven't seen him for several years although I see his son at some cowboy events.  I think he is now in ill health.
If I see his son Kyle I'll ask him.

He used his metal detector at many historical sites.  He worked on his own to and once told me that he had the parts from digs to build a complete trade gun.

Will Ketchum

[Ozark Tracker]

G'Day Will,Has your friend got any published info on the dig that I could look up?I am looking into the info that St George suggested,this is a really interesting topic for me & I would like to find out as much as I can bout this dig or any other investigations that where done at the LBH,thanks Feathers

just an idea about where you might find some info on the metal  detector digs,  there are some metal detector forums online,  I seem to remember several articles in detecting magazines of the time. there were several magazines in the early 80's,   someone might save magazines and happen to have one with the articles your wanting to see. 

[Ozark Tracker]

here's one article for the dig   http://www.friendslittlebighorn.com/Dig-of-1984.htm

in that article it says it was written up in Treasure Magazine  September 1985

[Delmonico]

You want to be a Plains NDN captured with a 'Custer' gun in the late 1870's.

Well considering that the only way to truly prove a "Custer gun" is to find on in the proper range of serial numbers and see if a case from the battlefield is a match to one fired in the questioned carbine, I doubt anyone would know for sure.

A lot of items from the battlefield at Slim Buttes were from the battlefield and no one was executed after the battle was over.

BTW a carbine at the Nebraska State Historical Society was proved to truly be one after the dig.

[St. George]

Not only did Dick Harmon do the cartridge identification, but the team was headed up by Doug Scott, with Richard Fox and Melissa Conner assisting.

They're local, and they've done extensive work on Indian War battlefields.

I recommend 'anything' that any of them have published.

As to the 'Custer Guns' - no one was riding across the Plains with a checklist of serial numbers of weapons issued to the Seventh, and after the Little Big Horn debacle, the Army was a bit more cautious in the pursuit.

There is an excellent treatise on these weapons in 'Man At Arms' magazine - but the publication dates escapes me.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!