19th Century Pack Saddle Frame?

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Anyone have access to a 19th century pack saddle frame pattern? I am particularly looking for a frame suitable for the period 1868-1874. Your help would greatly be appreciated. Historical accuracy and documentation is very important.

Bill

[Don Nix]

What do you want sawbuck,decker or artillery?
I have an old  US Army artillert Pack saddle. and i can fix you up with a sawbuck  or decker pattern probably. Ill just haveto run them down for dimensions as I havent built one in a while but thier not hard to throw together.

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Don......I'm not an expert on pack saddles, that's why I asked that the pattern could be documented. I'm looking for a pack saddle that hide hunter in the late 1860's, early 1870's Kansas would have used. These are going to be working props for a movie. Appreciate it.

Bill

[Don Nix]

Prior to  closing my shop in town  I was a saddler with a little experience. I was a master saddler that worked with the Regional Arts Council and the Arkansas Arts council as a historian on ranching heritage and culture. I worked as a grantee of the National Endoewment for the Arts  apprecnticeship program teaching saddlemaking.
I did restorative work for various collectors and museums on 19th century saddles tack and harness. Most of this work was done over twenty years ago . For years  I provided the research  material for publications and authors seeking factual information.
I was working  and promoting Cowboy Culture many years before it became the In thing and have performed from Elko NV to the Cowboy HAll of Fame to Montgomery Al showcasing Cowboy culture from saddles tack and harness to songs and poetry.
I bossed the first cattle drive from Texas to Arkansas  in 70 years.
I am not being contentious or bragging but the trappings that I have are authentic and the patterns that I used were taken from originals .
I retired after I got hurt ,a young horse broke a whole lot of bones but I still build a saddle or two for old customers.when I feel like it or the moneys right.
I understand you need documentation I was just triing to help out with some sruff  I thought you might could use. But not being a real expert I'll just hang on to what i've got.

[Don Nix]

Bill
I should of kept my mouth shut as I realize that you dont know me from Adams off ox.I been around the horn a time or two and sometimes think everyone should know what I do.
the last movie that I was the historical consulrant on was about Bass Reeves and the researcher had the character of Bass Reeves dressed in Woolies (made from bath mats I kid you not) and armed with a .22
i provided chaps and loaned them a Italiam made 1851  Navy.
After the checks bounced the Producer gave my pistol to the Cowboy Hall of Fame archives. i didnt get paid and lost a gun besides.
As to your saddle, sawbucks in one form or another have been in existance since Egyptian days and before. Animal bones wooden limbs antlers have all been used to create  the basic sawbuck. it gets it american name because it resembles the capenters sawbuck.
They can be seen on yaks in Tibet and on OX and Ass in China,
One of the oldest that I ran across used a tow sack filled with horse hair that had been packed on so long that the sacking had rotted away and left a formed hair pad about three inches thick that was permantly bounde to the bars.
Most bars are shaped similar to a saddles bars but many many  packer made  saddles especially those used down in mexico would be made with just a flat plank and the cross bars atteched  with nails.
Harness can be anything from rawhide to rope to harness leather to latigo.
ive seen a lot made with hair cinches and rope tied to the tree. it wasnt pretty but it worked.
  You will be good to go if you use a sawbuck  and panniers made from just about anything from wicker to canvas and leather.
Sorry for the rant i hope this helps.
if not then just take it with a grain of salt.

[Dr. Bob]

OCB,

I have a very old burrow or pony pack saddle without rigging.  It is the sawbuck type and you are welcome to look at it and use it to enlarge and copy.

[Major 2]

Don .... I've seen & felt your tinseltown plight ....been screwed once myself , but just the once....

They still owe me ... course I have Completion lean slapped on them 


OCB ... The Randy Steffin books show the Military version ( I'll scan it if you like )

Mean while here is the saw buck style ...  This one is photo art with the Henry

There's a company or two that still make pack saddles ( Cabela's carried them for awhile 'cept the panners were ripstop nylon )

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Don...'
No, don't keep your mouth shut Your help is the kind of help I need!  I know absolutely nothing about pack saddles. Don, I wasn't saying I wanted your references documented just the pattern of the saddle, and I sure wasn't doubting your expertise as a saddle maker. I'm sorry if my reply came across like that. Sometimes its hard to get your message clear when you post a topic and not talking directly to the person face to face.

We may be doing a independent western in Kansas a year from this October and we're gonna try to do something that has never been done before and make it as period correct as we can. That is why we narrowed it down to a four year period time frame and its important that the equipment (including saddles, pack saddles be period correct) be right. That's why we're documenting everything we use. So anything you can send me will be appreciated.

Major 2, I'm gonna make these myself and then weather them to give them a used look..(what we 18th century types like you and me call distressing ). I'll take anything you've got.

Dr. Bob, I appreciate the input but I don't think the pony pack saddle will work, we will be using horses and I still need it to be able to document anything I use.

If you all have got something you think I can use you can scan it and email the info to me at: bill@surf-ici.com, or mail it to me at:

Bill Proctor
10850 N. Mann Road
Mooresville, Indiana 46158

I'll reimburse any postage it may cost you.

Bill

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Major 2,
The style with the Henry rifle strung across it is what I would like to use....I want to stay away from anything that has modern saddle bars that's why I will make these instead of buying them. If we use these on horses the packs will be heavily padded and filled with light weight material so the bars won't hurt the animals...

Bill

[FEATHERS]

G'Day All,I emailed this info off to Ottawa Bill,& he suggest I post it here.From a book by Ben Hunt I'Ve had since I was a kid.Feathers

[FEATHERS]

Missed 2

[RollingThunder]

Don, knowing that there are people on this board who have that kind of expertise is very important, actually. Links to living history are crucial if we are to keep history vibrant, alive and most of all, accurate.

Was the movie "The Black Marshall: The Hunt for Dozier" BTW?

[Marshal Will Wingam]

That was some very good information, Feathers. Thanks for posting that.

Bill, be sure to post pics when you're done. That will be very interesting to see completed.

[ChuckBurrows]

Bill here's a link to some NDN made pack saddles of the period:
http://anthro.amnh.org/anthropology/databases/north_public/north_public.htm

Also check out the
Upper Missour Outfits Cayuse Hand book
http://uppermissourioutfit.com/MainTrading.html
It's one of the best sources for info on horses, mules, and equipment used in the RMFT and sawbuck frames just have not changed that much.....

I can also scan one from the Museum of the Fur Trade MTN Man Sketchbook that's at 1/5 scale......

here's an 1862 illustration showing pack saddles and the rigging http://mac110.assumption.edu/aas/graphics/fldriversx.jpg

a modern repro who states his sawbuck is based on originals
http://www.packsaddleshop.com/BitterrootSawbuck.html

And then there's Joe Back's "Horses, Hitches and Rocky Trails"..........the seminal book of horse/mule packing and how to do it....
http://books.google.com/books?id=C7Adk5CezV0C&dq=horses+hitches+and+rocky+trails&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=xnv8jiDZV9&sig=KWPNom27ourlgZalqhDgJhO6xxQ&hl=en&ei=x-VWSpe-Bof-tAPcnPXQDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Feathers...Chuck B. and all,
Thanks for the information.....I have plenty of rawhide lacing and real sinew...so when I get back from Texas at the end of the month (I'm leaving Sunday, day after tomorrow) I'm gonna make a couple of these out of Oak or Ash.

Chuck,
Anything you can scan would be great, I would like to keep all this info in my archives.

I'm making for movie props but will also use them for Hunting, I try to make a trip to Montana at least every three years.

By the way this is one of the most informative if not the best forum on Cas City. A lot of knowledge here.

See you all when I get back.

Bill

[Don Nix]

No, the movies working title was Bass Reeves Black Marshall.
Alrhough the movie you referenced is about the same timber.
Bass Reeves was  who he was but in an effort to build his legend some of the new historians have linked him to every lawman and outlaw since Swift Nix the 15th century highway man.
A lot of revisionist historians  have complicated what was simple for the sensational.
As to the pack saddles. You have to remember that Jacks .jenneys and a whole lot of mules were used in the 19th century.
in fact mules were prefferred for their versatility and good sense. They are just not as romanticized as the horse. but  if your working on historical accuracy mules and burros were the "wokhorses" of the era.
Subsequently,  those old pack frames had straight bars that were tapered up on the ends  . This was done with a draw knife starting about 3inches back and taperiing down the front and rear ends of the bars. This worked alright with a burro because they are slab sided and a little padding was all that was needed.  But a horses back is often different and back ,shoulder and ribs 
have a lot of curvature. A packsaddle with straight bars will not sit properly on a modern horses  back..
The bars must be tapered and the bars curved  inward to settle down  and ride along the back equally distributing the pressure.
You can do this by  heating the wood  and bending it  or as modern saddletree makers do by cutting the curvature out of thicker wood when they mill the bars.
19th century horses ,especially range horses little resemble the horses of today. Less work and better nutrition has made the equine a  pet to be coddled rather than a tool  that was necessary for survival.
If your going for accuacy in packing you better go for burros or mules or bow to the fact that  youll have to use equipment that will fit todays modern hotses. Because if you use one of these straight barred old sawbucks youll cripple a riding horse quick.