High Carbon Steel or Stainless Steel?

[Harley Starr]

I've read that high carbon steel is fit for battle. As for stainless steel, well....I don't know.

[Dr. Bob]

High carbon steel is period correct.  It is easier to sharpen.  I think that there is now some stainless that is better suited for knives than there was 20 years ago.  I hope that some of the craftsmen will chime in with the correct info!

[St. George]

I've carried (and used) a Randall Model 1 Fighting Knife with a stainless blade for well over three decades.

Stainless is 'excellent' for a fighting knife - it only got a bad reputation because it was difficult to sharpen and because many of the firearms being made with it initially were rough, since it was hard to machine with older tools.

You 'do' have to clean a stainless blade of blood, though - nothing is truly 'stainless'...

Scouts Out!

[The Elderly Kid]

Stainless works fine for knives, but for various arcane metallurgical reasons it's no good for swords. A longer blade needs springiness - the ability to flex without taking a set. Stainless lacks that quality. Having said that, carbon is much easier to sharpen and more forgiving of dulling. The answer is not to let the blade get dull in the first place. If your blade is stainless, touch it up with a steel or stone after each use. Of course, that's also a good idea for carbon steel, too.

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

Howdy Gents

        After retiring from the meat business after 45 years, I've used just about everything ever offered in the way of good to excellent quality knives, your high carbon knives will sharpen easier and you can use a smooth steel to bring back the edge when it starts get a little dull, the high carbon knives are easier and faster to get an edge on, but they won't hold and edge as long as a high quality Stainless Steel blade, and if not handled properly the carbon knives will stain and rust very easy, but they are great knives once you understand what makes them tick.
      Stainless Steel is harder, and therefore much harder to sharpen, but will hold an edge much longer than carbon steel, there are still carbon knives used in my industry, they're used primarily for scooping out tenderloins, which take a knife that will bend easy and not break, stainless steel doesn't have this bending quality, although there are some very thin ss knives out there , but they still won't do what a thin carbon knife will. Stainless Steel is here to stay, for a hunting knife they are hard to beat, once you have a good edge on your knife, you can depend on it performing well for a longer period of time, without a lot of attention, I have a spyderco hunter folder that I've had since 1984, and its never been on a sharpening stone, I just use a ceramic steel and stroke it at the right angle a few times and I'm done. Stainless Steel will stain and will rust, but not as easy as carbon, I always try to keep a light coat of oil on my knives at all time, being in the food business we had to use mineral oil, and they still do, now I use any of my gun oils, but if I'm going to use the knife on meat or anything I'm going to eat, I'll wipe the blade clean of the oil, using mineral oil, you don't have that worry, but still wipe it clean before using, mineral oil is used also for cleaning Stainless Steel, it will make it bright and shinny too.
      Both these Steels are of high quality, and both will serve you well, like I said earlier once you understand there characteristics or pluses and minuses it's not a problem taking care of them. ( IMHO )


                                                                 Regards

                                                               tEN wOLVES   

[Jamie]

Because most of my knives (in terms of "hunting" knives that is) get used on fish or game, I always wipe on vegetable oil, usually olive oil after cleaning them following their exercise periods.  Is this as good as mineral oil? I've had no problems, but then most of them (4 or 5) get used and cleaned pretty regularly.  My understanding is that olive oil is pretty resistant to gumming up with age.
Jamie

[GunClick Rick]

Nice info Ten Wolves,i knew there was a difference but not exactly what,i can see being a butcher where your comin from.The local butchers shop here (GLICKS)has knives they have retired i guess hangin on the wall above the glass where you can watch the butchers. Next time i go there i will apreciate what i see more.Been there ever since i can remember,man we take things for granted sometime untill we learn a little somethin.

Might even ask if they will let me have a go at it,well at least go back and look closer.

[ChuckBurrows]

Well I'm going to throw my hat in the ring here because unfortunately and with all due respect there is a bit of dis-information that's been posted--
1) High carbon vs stainless is not the way this subject should be approached since there is high carbon stainless - the better definition should be non-stainless vs stainless, but even that is a misnomer since there is no such thing as stainless but rather stain resistant - the main difference is that so called stainless steels contain a fairly high quantity of chromium which helps prevent stains and in the right ratio can aid with edge retention
2)

the high carbon knives are easier and faster to get an edge on, but they won't hold and edge as long as a high quality Stainless Steel blade.....Stainless Steel is harder, and therefore much harder to sharpen, but will hold an edge much longer than carbon steel, there are still carbon knives used in my industry, they're used primarily for scooping out tenderloins, which take a knife that will bend easy and not break, stainless steel doesn't have this bending quality, although there are some very thin SS knives out there , but they still won't do what a thin carbon knife will.

Not exactly true - and with all due respect that's a simplistic and mis-leading answer since being made of stainless steel alone does not make a blade harder or harder to sharpen or allow it to be bent at a lesser degree. Hardness and subsequent difficulty in sharpening as well as the other properties such as flex has to do with the amount of carbon in the steel along with other alloying elements, but also how it is tempered and it's geometry.
For instance - Many stainless blades such as the Buck Knives are tempered at a Rockwell C scale of plus 60, which is above file hardness thus making them tough and generally with good edge holding abilities, but non-stainless blades made from such steels as 1095 or 52100 can also be tempered at that level as well and can be equally as hard and tough to sharpen - in fact the most commonly used stainless steels often have less carbon or the same amount of carbon them than many non-stainless steels.  For instance two most commonly used stainless steels used for knife blades are 440B (the steel SG's Randall was most likely made from with an RC of 58-59) with a .75-.95 carbon content which is equivalent to non stainless simple steels such as 1075-1095 and 440C with .95-1.20 carbon which is equivalent to 1095 and 52100. All of these steels are capable of a hardeness of 60+ RC, but are often in the 58-59 RC range (about file hard) for a balance between hardness/edge retention and brittleness. How flexible a blade is, also has to do with how it is tempered and it's geometry and not whether it is stainless or non-stainless.

Bottom line - How hard and difficult a steel is to sharpen is far more dependent on the alloying elements plus carbon content and how it is heat treated than whether it is stainless or not.

IMO - when speaking of "period" knives stainless shouldn't be even considered since it's a type of steel not developed specifically for knife blades until the mid-20th Century....

My explanations are only the tip of the proverbial iceberg - steel and it's properties when discussing knife blades is a much more complicated subject dependent on several factors of which I noted only the bare basics...........

FWIW - I don't claim to be an expert, just a serious student of the subject and a maker of knives since 1961....

PS Jamie - I use Extra Virgon Olive Oil as well - while it may not be the "optimum" oil to use, if one takes care of their blades it works fine and it is also very traditional - in the past it was known as sweet oil and was considered to be the second best oil after sperm whale oil.....
Since I am a dyed in the wool traditionalist I also use it for oiling my period guns and as a patch lube for my muzzle loading rifles and other BP guns where applicable - that is when I can't get bear oil anyway.

[GunClick Rick]

Now that right there is what's called trimmin the fat, but it sure sounded like health care reform to me..


I'll get there Numbers always cornfuse me..

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

  Howdy Rick

         The Health care thing is funny,

  Jamie

        Although mineral oil is used today on carbon and stainless steel, EVOO, or extra virgin olive oil as it's called works fine on both carbon and SS too, just wipe it down with oil  before you put your knife away, EVOO won't get rancid like regular olive oil will, it is a much purer oil, but remember to wash your blade off before using on food or any meat you want cut.


                                      tEN wOLVES  


                               

[GunClick Rick]

You know what?I just realized my wife has about 4 bottles of that stuff on an old cupboard in the kitchen for decoration. Looks like my knives will get a rub down..

[Grogan]

Bottom line - How hard and difficult a steel is to sharpen is far more dependent on the alloying elements plus carbon content and how it is heat treated than whether it is stainless or not.

IMO - when speaking of "period" knives stainless shouldn't be even considered since it's a type of steel not developed specifically for knife blades until the mid-20th Century....

This is all VERY interesting to me (as I'm sure that most others, like myself, reading The Cutting Edge, have an interest in this) getting a better understanding the various steel's properties.

While we can discuss modern steel options, like the various 440 steels, ATS-34, AU 6 & 8, 1095, D2 etc., etc.

About those "period" steels; if we take the better ones, like the better grades of steel used by Sheffield makers of the day in the 1870s-90s, what were they and how do they compare with any steels we have/use today?

[Big T]

As a professional knifemaker I can tell you that the knife depends on the Job  , if your cutting alot of meat , 12-c-27 sweedish stainless , rc 54 hardness  scale , it will cut great sharpen back easy an last without rusting ,
For a period peace ,handforged 1095 rough finnished an tough as nails at rc 49 will not hold an edge very long but will slice like a razor for a little bit
for modern hunters in Cold country I suggest Modern D-2 or Ats -34 , 440-C(if you want mirror finnish ) or BG-42/154 CM all of these knife materials are for hard wear restance stay sharp LONG time , press thru type cutting hair popping sharp ,
Different steels produce different cutting principals if you like the visious touch it an get cut , carbon steel  at lower hardness , but it dont stay sharp long an it is easy as pie to sharpen

press thru cutting High grade hard stainless steel  rc 59 to 61 hardness , It totaly depends on what you want to do , T, T bar K Custom knives

[Dr. Bob]

Big T,

Thanks for that explanation!

[Professor Honeyfuggler]

I always wipe on vegetable oil, usually olive oil after cleaning them following their exercise periods.  Is this as good as mineral oil?

Grandson of a butcher here, with 40+ knives in my knife block, adding my 2cents to the pot.

Mineral oil is food safe, colorless, odorless, has no taste and does not oxidize.

Olive oil has distinctive taste, color, odor, and turns gummy and rancid with time. It also solidifies at cold temperatures.

Now you know why mineral oil is what professionals use for knives that will touch food. It's also best for treating wood cutting boards for the same reason. 

[Professor Honeyfuggler]

I use Extra Virgon Olive Oil as well - while it may not be the "optimum" oil to use, if one takes care of their blades it works fine and it is also very traditional - in the past it was known as sweet oil and was considered to be the second best oil after sperm whale oil..... Since I am a dyed in the wool traditionalist I also use it for oiling my period guns and as a patch lube for my muzzle loading rifles and other BP guns where applicable - that is when I can't get bear oil anyway.

Today the sweet oil you buy at Walgreens to soften ear wax is olive oil. In days past, many oils were referred to as "sweet oil," including almond oil, corn oil, rapeseed oil (today we call it Canola), and colza oil (turnipseed oil).

Of those, two that were available on the frontier were rapeseed and colza, perhaps because of their use on steam trains. Rapeseed was used as a lubricant, and colza was used as a fuel in lamps.

In my estimation, both would be better for use on a gun than olive oil. First, they don't turn gummy like olive oil can, and they both have higher smoke points and leave little varnish when burned, unlike olive oil. Of the two, obviously rapeseed (Canola) is the easiest to find today, and it's much cheaper than olive oil to boot.