Fillers (like "grits")...

[Button]

Hallo the camp!
    Are grits the same as cornmeal? No such thing as grits available in my 'hood.
    Can I dump it right on top of the FF & compress the whole thing? Or should I compress the BP, THEN add grits/cornmeal/oatmeal?
    A new guy has shot two matches total & now wants to jump right into The Dark Arts after seeing two of us with the flamethrowers. I know just the place to send him to do some readin' 
    Had zero wind last match. Lookin' for steel through a wall of smoke that just hung there. Nothing to do but laugh & keep the gun pointed into it.
    Smoke it up,
    Button

[john boy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grits

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Grits seems to be all the rage to use as a filler these days, but a number of years ago I loaded up some 45 Colt cartridges with corn meal as a filler. I dumped in the powder, then the cornmeal, then I compressed the whole thing with the bullet. I did not compress the powder and filler separately, just compressed with the bullet after the corn meal was added.

Worked fine.

[Mako]

Button,
Corn meal is the finer product of grinding and grits are the coarser bits that make it through the mill.  Personally I think Corn Meal packs out too much, it can be used but a better substitute would be Cream of Wheat.  I have used fillers with .45 Colt and .44-40 loads trying to save powder, but in the end it was more trouble than it was worth.  Some download trying to minimize smoke, but what's the fun of that?  Unless of course you are trying to build BP "gamer" loads.

I will admit I shoot a lot of .44 Russian instead of .44 Spl., but with full cases in both loads.  The .44 Russian is only about 60 fps slower.  .44 Henry loads are ballistically similar to the .44 Russian.  I shoot the straight walled cases to expedite reloading using carbide dies in a progressive press,  but I pay for it with the additional fouling (blow back)I get.  My .44-40s are the cleanest BP cartridge guns I have whether they are rifles or pistols.  I can just clean out the bore on the .44 WCF rifles and only fully break them down just a couple of times a year.  On the straight walled .44s I can only go two matches at the most without a total strip.  I know of a lot of people who would go a full 6 months, but I like them clean.

Just dump your powder and then your grits/cream of wheat on top.  Actually almost anything will do as a filler.  Now I'm talking about CAS loads here.  If you're looking for precision then you'll have to talk with someone else about fillers.  I use full loads of Swiss 1.5 or Goex 2F or Cartridge for those types of loads.

I have a friend who used brown sugar flavored instant oatmeal and all it did was make us hungry when he shot it.  You could actually smell a bit of the sugary odor.  I find Oatmeal also packs a little too much, when I have used a filler I just want it to be stiff enough to transfer the compression to the powder and not really compress itself.

What cartridge are you trying to down load?  Is this for the new shooter, or for you?

Regards,
Mako

[Fiddler Green]

I like to fill my .45 Colt cases half way with Goex Cartridge and then I fill the rest of the case with Goex Cartridge. It makes the perfect filler!

Really, dude, what's the point? Either shoot BP or don't, but, part of the mystique of shooting black powder is being a man; not being a gamer. It's about shooting what was shoot at the OK Coral and in the streets of Dodge City. It's history, it's the true Cowboy way, its not trying to stradle the line between Darksider and Gamer.

Fill up those cases and put out some smoke and flame! You may not win, but, You'll sure impress!

Bruce

[Mako]

I like to fill my .45 Colt cases half way with Goex Cartridge and then I fill the rest of the case with Goex Cartridge. It makes the perfect filler!

Really, dude, what's the point? Either shoot BP or don't, but, part of the mystique of shooting black powder is being a man; not being a gamer. It's about shooting what was shoot at the OK Coral and in the streets of Dodge City. It's history, it's the true Cowboy way, its not trying to stradle the line between Darksider and Gamer.

Fill up those cases and put out some smoke and flame! You may not win, but, You'll sure impress!

Bruce

Bruce,
You had me going there for a minute, my first thought was , why would anyone do a duplex load on a .45 Colt?  Then I reread it...

~Mako

[Button]

Thank's for the input fellas.
    Here's what's going on: I am in transition between lube cookies & Big Lube's. So I was going to replace the space taken up by the lube cookie with some sort of filler. I had not even thought of filling the extra space with FF  , so I'll try it with no filler & see how it handles. How bad can it be? It's not THAT much of an increase in the powder charge. Pistols in .45 Colt  & 44-40 Rifle.
   Mako, I've had great results with my Marlin ' 94 in .44 Mag & BP. No blowback at all. You could even anneal the cases & it would behave like a 44-40.
    Seeya out there,
    Button

[Jefro]

Howdy Button, just a thought, 2f in the rifle with no filler, and AJ's Cowboy 45sp with 3f in the pistols. That should keep your loads manageable. Good Luck.

Jefro

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Button,

It's fun to read this kind of thread and see how much correct great information is being posted.  Yes, I fill my brass full of Holy Black and compress it with the bullet and I like how it shoots.  I've shot bp loads with fillers but didn't personally like the sound and smoke.

In my case, I  choose the brass length for the mission at hand.  The 45 Colt is a great pistol caliber because of all the great choices in brass length.

Unless you must, save the cereal for breakfast and load 'em hulls up with bp.

Let 'er flicker.

DD-DLoS

[Abilene]

I don't use any fillers in .38 or .357 because I want all the powder in there that will fit.  But in .44 and .45 I usually drop a 0.5cc dipper of grits over the BP.  This is a tiny bit of filler and I expect it compresses to about 1/16", not really using it to "reduce" the load - it basically acts like a very thin vegetable wad.  Nobody has every accused me of wimpy loads.  Since I am dropping the BP with dippers anyway, it is pretty easy to add the grits.  I have in the past added 1 cc of grits when I was low on powder and trying to stretch it a bit, and couldn't really tell much difference in the boom and smoke.  Because the grits is fluffier and compresses more than the gunpowder, 1cc of grits probably only replaced about 0.5cc of BP.  I think the grits tends to add some smokey "tracers" as well.

[Mako]

I'll vouch for Abilene!   No one has ever accused him of shooting wimpy loads even in Navy conversions.  I never realized he even used anything but full bore loads.  I never thought about the tracer effect. Hmmmm...interesting, I have thought about using 1F just to get more flame and sparks out of the pistols.

Does it work Abilene?   I'll have to watch next time.  Remember a few years ago when I was using lubed felt wads behind my rifle bullets?  Now those were TRACERS!  Made crazy spiraling smoking tracers, you don't notice them at pistol ranges but on the longer rifle targets it was a hoot.  But, then we have been known to set ranges on fire, haven't we? For the rest of you I am serious about that... Spyder John and Judge Menday were sure I was going to do it last Saturday as hot as it was, kept lookig after I shot. 

We missed you Abilene!  Waterloo shot with us and said you had some work related obligations.  That's two in a row, are you gonna' shoot this weekend?

~Mako

[Abilene]

Howdy Mako,
I'm afraid I'm working out of town every weekend until the end of August    You'll just have to make more smoke to make up for it.

I generally don't see the tracers myself unless I see a video, kind of like smoke rings that you only see when others shoot them 
Those grits tracers are pretty tiny compared to lube cookie tracers!  I've started carrying a little fire extinguisher in my cart "just in case".

[Appalachian Ed]

Cornmeal and 3F.......In an ORIGINAL New Model Army.





-Ed

[Fiddler Green]

I don't use any fillers in .38 or .357 because I want all the powder in there that will fit.  But in .44 and .45 I usually drop a 0.5cc dipper of grits over the BP.  This is a tiny bit of filler and I expect it compresses to about 1/16", not really using it to "reduce" the load - it basically acts like a very thin vegetable wad.  Nobody has every accused me of wimpy loads.  Since I am dropping the BP with dippers anyway, it is pretty easy to add the grits.  I have in the past added 1 cc of grits when I was low on powder and trying to stretch it a bit, and couldn't really tell much difference in the boom and smoke.  Because the grits is fluffier and compresses more than the gunpowder, 1cc of grits probably only replaced about 0.5cc of BP.  I think the grits tends to add some smokey "tracers" as well.

AS I shoot one or two night matches a month and I use the same loads for daytime and night time: I really don't want to create more smoke. It's hard enough having to shoot through the front lit, smoke as it is. The last match had a dump stage and I had to wait for the smoke to clear from the pistols before I could find the rifle target. Then, I hadj to shoot most of the rifle rounds "blind" and ended up with three misses: that all probably cost me second place. 


Bruce

[Fiddler Green]

I'll vouch for Abilene!    I have thought about using 1F just to get more flame and sparks out of the pistols.


~Mako

Be warned: I loaded up some cases with 2F (i was out of Cartridge) and by the time I got to the un-loading table my guns were so hot they "uncomfortable" to un-load.

Bruce

[Mako]

Be warned: I loaded up some cases with 2F (i was out of Cartridge) and by the time I got to the un-loading table my guns were so hot they "uncomfortable" to un-load.

Bruce

It is actually the opposite, Fg would be the coolest...

3F burns hotter than 2F, 2F burns hotter than 1F.  You get more unburned powder being blown out the front for the larger the grain size you use.  That is the very reason you would use a larger grain size is for the "fireworks" effect.

We had this discussion a long time ago on a different forum.  In this case it was about shotguns.  Someone was claiming you shouldn't use 1F with plastic wads because 1F was hotter and they would melt more.

It went so far that a controlled experiment was run, gun had TCs (thermocouples) attached to the right barrel.  6 rounds were fired through the right barrel, the data recorded and then the gun was allowed to fully cool.  Three powders, three identical volumes of powder, same wad, same shot load.  3F was the hottest, over 40°F delta if I remember.  The deck was also stacked to make sure 1F could potentially be the hottest by making it the last run.  Some people might have claimed there was a gradual increase in the barrel temperature that was never allowed to fully cool, but FFFg was run first and it was the hottest.

In short, equal volumes of powder with different grain sizes burn at different rates and different temperatures.  3F has the most surface area by volume so it burns the fastest and the hottest.  It's simple combustion theory.  Self contained fuel and oxidizer in a pelletized mixture, in this case a granulated form.  The sum of the area combusting  (called flamespread by laboratory ballisticans) determines the pressure and temperature.

Cartridge is supposed to fall between FFg and FFFg retaining more of the 30 Mesh sieved powder.  It meters a bit better, but internal ballistics indicate it has very similar properties to FFg as far as burn rates and pressures go.  This is probably a production trade off by the removal of more of the "fines" that are passed through in FFg for 30 Mesh grains you find in Cartridge.  The total surface area is roughly the same hence ballistically equivalent to FFg but less "dust" and better and more consistent metering.  But that's a whole different topic.  Go talk to Bill if you want the down and dirty on the "Cartridge" designated powder.

~Mako

[Fiddler Green]

It is actually the opposite, Fg would be the coolest...


~Mako

Yea, that's what I would have thought to. But, it's not what I found out at the un-loading table.

BTW: One of the advantages of my filler method, I have Cream of wheat left over for breakfast!

Bruce

[Mako]

Yea, that's what I would have thought to. But, it's not what I found out at the un-loading table.

BTW: One of the advantages of my filler method, I have Cream of wheat left over for breakfast!

Bruce

Bruce,
It's not about intuition or assumptions, it's about science and empirically derived information.  Black Powder Burns Cooler the larger the grain size gets.

Things like perceived heat are very relative to the environment and our current condition.  Elevated adrenaline and expanded capillaries even contributes to the heightened sense of heat.  Both happen during stress or conditions of excitement.

This is why we collect and chart  information  when conducting  experiments instead of going with perception.  Its coincidental that I am running such a test in the equipment lab even as I type this.  Of course the temperatures are running in the 750° C (1382° F) range, a little bit different than  the sub 200°F we see on our firearms during a match.

Regards,
Mako

[Fiddler Green]

Bruce,
It's not about intuition or assumptions, it's about science and empirically derived information.  Black Powder Burns Cooler the larger the grain size gets.

Things like perceived heat are very relative to the environment and our current condition.  Elevated adrenaline and expanded capillaries even contributes to the heightened sense of heat.  Both happen during stress or conditions of excitement.

This is why we collect and chart  information  when conducting  experiments instead of going with perception.  Its coincidental that I am running such a test in the equipment lab even as I type this.  Of course the temperatures are running in the 750° C (1382° F), a little bit different than  the sub 200°F we see on our firearms during a match.

Regards,
Mako

I don't have any explination as to why, but, When I had to load up some .45 Colt with Goex 2F it wthe guns seemed to get much hotter then my normal loads of Goex Cartridge.  Again, the key word is "Seemed".

I'm headeed down to the range this afternoon and I still have some of those loads left so I'll try one gun with my normal load and one with my 2F load and see what happens.


Bruce

[Montana Slim]

...The temperature effects of grain size are generally correct, but the overall equation for heat transfer in the weapon is more complex.
Larger grain size = more particulate fouling. Fouling retains more heat energy. But, I doubt its a one-to-one relationship.
I'm not "geeky" enough to care about deriving a formula, but unburned propellant is the primary cause for a BP weapon to heat quicky...more quickly than the given input engery from a similar velocity smokeless propellant load.

I took a college course via work on pyrotechnics & explosives. Interestingly my "teacher" wrote the textbook & I got him to autograph it to "Montana Slim". There is a chapter devoted to gunpowder (corect term for the "real" thing ). I inquired about a "hands-on" lab day, but my teacher insisted we watch the videos instead.

Regards,
Slim