New Six cavity mold handles.

[Dick Dastardly]

Thank you Sir Charles,

Yes, I've seen those marks on ALL my LEE handles.  I do think they are cast.  The broken ones I've seen fracture like cast iron.  I'm hoping to offer a longer lasting and stronger product.

DD-DLoS

[Montana Slim]

Yep, I put the spring pin thru the metal ferrule as this is the logical location.
Yep, I knew these were cast.


Regards,
Slim

[Mako]

Dick, I'm curious.. you've stated several times that Lee's handles are a sintered metal component.. How do you reach this conclusion?

I have some experience with manufacturing methods including die casting, spin casting, investment / sand casting, sintered metal and metal injection molding (MIM).  Both sintered metal and MIM use powdered metal, which presently is pretty expensive compared to wrought or traditional cast materials. Plus the tooling and processing for sintered metal/MIM can be quite high. It is best justified when the volume of material needed is quite low, and the complexity of the part is quite high. (that is a quick lesson for those interested).

For such a simple shape as the handles and the given the component's large size (high material cost using powdered metal - PM), I would be highly surprised if PM were used.

At a quick glance, I assume the handles are made via die casting or similar. I've seen a number of items from other reloading equipment producers that I suspect are made from die castings as well, using steel, aluminum (& alloy), along with zinc-alloys.

Using a wrought material as used in your handles is a definite improvement in materials, nonetheless.

Regards,
Slim

PS:
I considered an adhesive for the handles, but they too are affected by age and heat, so I went with a mechanical pinning operation. Done this on several Lee molds. I even kept my 2-cavity RB mould operational by swedging the sprue-hole back to round (from the inside)...this mold is high-mileage for sure, but makes nice balls once again.

Wouldn't mind if you'd hit Lee up on making 4 or even 6 cavity RB moulds for the revolvers and would be curious why they don't offer a .31 revolver mould (should cast a .320 RB)...better yet, Maybe you could get a minimum run and offer on your website as a DD exclusive.....bet they'd sell well....I'd sure buy in on these 

Slim,

First of all I am not trying to rain on your parade or play a game of "one-upsmanship."  So take this in the spirit it is intended.  I am always the student and you said some things that have me very interested.

You seem to know about metal processing techniques, but you said a few things which are out of phase with what my experience is.  First of all, why do you think the steel components of the Lee handles are "Die Cast?" You kept asking Dick why he thought they were PM parts, I ask you the same question, but for a different process, "why do you think they are die cast?"   While not totally unheard of, steel die casting is rare and very expensive.  Die casting is common with non-ferrous materials .  On the other hand straight PM of simple shapes like the handles is a common practice and the tooling is not that expensive.  Now MIM on the other hand is expensive and requires injection mold tooling, special molding machines,  debinding  equipment  in addition to sintering furnaces.  If you had said simple castings I would agree they would be relatively inexpensive, but Die Cast tooling and processing capability for steel is very expensive.  If you know of a cheap source of Steel Die Casting send me a message because I need to survey them.

If the parts are PM they are probably either hot bagged or more likely use HIP tooling.  I'm also not sure where you buy your materials, but materials like FN-0205 or FN-0208 which are common hardenable Iron-Nickel Sintering alloys, or even F-0008 mild steel are cheaper than most wrought alloy steels by weight.

PM can be extremely effective on both ends of the complexity spectrum. Simple shapes can be isostatically pressed or even HIPed which reduces the steps for simple shapes with relatively uniform cross sections.  If you want to see the opposite end of the spectrum look at the Kimber 1911.  The original incarnation in 1995 had eleven MIM components produced at two different vendors overseas.  Later McCormick, Wilson and Nowlin parts were fabricated at three facilities all in the U.S.  The primary advantage of the MIM parts were net, or in some cases near net shaped parts with complex geometries.  Much to my chagrin the MIM hammers and sears for instance totally replaced the EDM hammers and sears in the McCormick parts line up.

Most MIM parts you still see today are simply "monkey copies" of the part as it was machined or cast before it was converted to MIM fabrication.  I used the Kimber as an example of a MIM components because it is a firearm and most of us  would be more familiar with it than any one of a number of Orthopedic Hip Trochanter Arthroplasty tools or other such spiffy items.

I support Dick's choice in fabricating his parts from Laser cut  wrought materials as well,  for his volumes and to assure the quality and strength he wants it is his best choice.

One last thing, I can assure you that Dick didn't come up with the term "sintered" on his own, he has dealt a lot with Lee in getting the Big Lube products he now has to offer.   Take a closer look at those 6 cavity handles (not the single or two cavity variety). 

Now that I've said all of that, personally I think they are simple castings, but it is possible they are PM parts.

Have a nice evening,
Mako

[Noz]

Boy, Mako! I've made a note to never ask you for the time.

[Mako]

Boy, Mako! I've made a note to never ask you for the time.

Gregorian or Aztec calendar?  Normal or convolutional coding with Viterbi algorithm decoding?

~Mako

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Now, you are showing off!

[Mako]

Now, you are showing off!

Got me!

[Montana Slim]

Could be die casting, could be spin casting, possibly sand casting.
The pin marks on the handle are on clue to the process. another is how the metal "looks".
Coincidently, I've looked at broken Lee parts (including subject handles) and many others related to firearms industry under a microscope.

As to other stuff.......
Yes, hipping is a common practice. Works on MIM parts as well.
Density measurements and grain structure are the easiest way to differentiate processes used as well as materials.
I'm not a metallurgist, but worked with several & it's always a 2-way street of learning.
Of course my friends in the lab have an SEM...it can make seemingly simple statements and predicitions look like staggering genius.

The cost of wrought material will vary with the form purchased. Choosing the more expensive forms (bar) or certified materials of the same can be costly compared to buying "almost 4140" from a "garage" wholesaler.

Regards,
Slim

[Noz]

Gregorian or Aztec calendar?  Normal or convolutional coding with Viterbi algorithm decoding?

~Mako

Actually I was thinking of CDT but didn't want to know haw to make a watch. My calendar choice from the above would be the Aztec. I enthralled with their idea of non-linear revolving time.

[Mako]

Could be die casting, could be spin casting, possibly sand casting.Regards,
Slim

Slim,
You keep saying it could be die casting.  Because of that I am assuming you know some die casters, would you share with me who does steel dies casting that you know of?

I actually know of one house that does it (in the U.S.) and I have been doing this a long time.  You were expressing concern that PM was too expensive of a process, it seems you know something I don't (there is a lot I don't know). 

Can you give me the name of a foundry that will do steel die casting, and I mean  at any cost?  I'm serious, I'll be contacting them Monday about some parts that were going to end up as MIM components.  If I find a Die Casting source that will do steel parts in the 150 gram  to 2 kilo range they're definitely getting a survey visit.  Even if they are off shore I would like to know who they are.  The house in Israel I did business with is too hard to deal with, I need another source.

Just Steel Die Casting, I have plenty of sources for everything else.

Thanks,
Mako

P.S.  I talked to a friend who has the handles he described them to me, it's not sand casting it's probably a lost wax process or permanent tooling to make plaster molds and either vacuum or centrifugal.   You've sort of alluded to that.

As far as materials, go we (and I) have never bought any cut rate powders or garage sale products.  That flies in the face of GMP and it would invalidate our ISO 9001 certification.  We only buy from quality sources.  As I said before a mild steel or an Iron-Nickel alloy is actually less expensive per pound than a simple alloy of wrought steel.  The cost in the MIM process is the equipment, tooling and processing, not the materials.  Materials have gotten very cheap with the increased use of atomized powders for the super fine grain steels such as 154CM and ATS34.  The technology is used to produce but PIM, CIM and MIM grades of powdered alloys now.

[Montana Slim]

PM on the way.