The role of the shotgun in history and CAS

[Mako]

Only if you believe the dime novels, eye witness acounts say he was hit by buckshot, since it killed him dead, I would believe that before I would believe the other.

As I said, think about the aerodynamics involved.   

Yep, been demonstrated he probably would have missed at the range recorded.  Dimes sound mean but they are pretty useless.
Mako

[Mako]

Mako,

I went and shot today with one of the local SASS clubs this evening.  They had a Black powder shoot with 5 side matches and a BP shoot at dusk.  Had a great time.  Shot my 130 year old Wesley Richards S X S 12 ga. and knocked down all 4 shotgun targets!

Excellent, but did you really expect anything different?  Glad you had fun.  Hmmmmmmm, shotguns and fun, what a concept.

Regards,
Mako

[Daniel Nighteyes]

didn't Billy the Kid kill Robert "Bob" Ollinger, with his own 10 gauge shotgun, loaded with coins ($.05, as I recall).

I think it was dimes, but then my rememberer is often on the fritz.

[Mako]

I think it was dimes, but then my rememberer is often on the fritz.

That myth was busted on that Cable show Wild West Tech.  The dimes wouldn't penetrate a hog carcass.

Also some other guys tried it.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot35.htm

Note the range 12 feet, 15 feet and 25 feet! Not at the distance from the window (not the balcony as shown in the movie) to the where he was shot.

We can thank Sam Peckinpah for this myth.

~Mako

[Delmonico]

Didn't know they did that on TV since I seldom watch it.  But anyone with a knowledge of ballistics can tell you it ain't gonna work.  For reasons to many to bother explaining tonight. 

[Mako]

Didn't know they did that on TV since I seldom watch it.  But anyone with a knowledge of ballistics can tell you it ain't gonna work.  For reasons to many to bother explaining tonight. 

Del,
You are so right...  But it just shows how many myths there are about firearms.  Even in the movie Open Range where Duval shoots through the wall, the power of a shotgun is grossly exaggerated.  Throws the guy across the alley and against a wall.  Otherwise I thought the gunfight scenes were actually pretty decent.

I have had arguments I mean discussions with friends that ended up with me winning bets proving something they "knew"( thought) was true wasn't.  I am amazed at how much of the lore of firearms has been created by movies and TV.  Even with people who are hunters and who have seen the effects of bullets on game.

Have a nice evening Del,
Mako

[Camille Eonich]

Much lore and much fantasy...otherwise we would all be in jail.  Shoot a lot, have fun but be safe.

[Delmonico]

Much lore and much fantasy...otherwise we would all be in jail.  Shoot a lot, have fun but be safe.

This is one that should not be tried at home, take a 12 ga with a fairly tight choke and one could bannana peel it from the muzzle, back toward ya.

[Dr. Bob]

Del,

Yer talkin about the dimes being too big to go though a 12 gauge bore with a full choke?

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I think its time to remind ourselves to stick to proven data in a recognized loading manual.

[Delmonico]

Del,

Yer talkin about the dimes being too big to go though a 12 gauge bore with a full choke?

Sometimes they are.

I think its time to remind ourselves to stick to proven data in a recognized loading manual.

Would like to hear the tech on the other end if someone called Hodgdon on this one.

[Fiddler Green]

Only if you believe the dime novels, eye witness acounts say he was hit by buckshot, since it killed him dead, I would believe that before I would believe the other.

As I said, think about the aerodynamics involved.   

I'm pretty sure that, at that range,  coins would have been just as deadly as buck shot.

I've never seeen/heard any eye witness accounts of the shooting. Where did you see them? I'd be interested in reading them. Yea, I know something about aerodynamics and wondered how efective that would be.

Bruce

[Fiddler Green]

Daniel in his friendly and calm manner later states,
True...but, how many years have you been doing this Camille? How many years Daniel?  Now ask Fiddler, how many months.

Everyone has an opinion, but some are respected more than others.

Thank you Camille (and all the others like Del, RattlesnakeJack, A.J., et al) for interjecting some reality into the thread! The reality is not that our stages are not realistic, if they were most of our shots would be taken as we ran away looking for cover, or consist of 3 or 4 shots. 

The reality is that this is what we do for fun.  Shotguns are fun!  Most of us would improve our scores if we just worked on our reloading skills, that's what makes it FUN!  At every match I go to I think we have the MOST FUN on the shotgun portion.  We usually end up shouting encouragement to shooters who miss a target, giving them aiming corrections.  Sometimes even handing them shells from our belt when they have emptied theirs  .

Look at the signature below Fiddlers avatar,   "Defender of all things fun!"  Ironic isn't it?

Have a great 4th all!  Let's take the time to remember those who have fought for our freedom and endured hardships to allow us dress up like our western heroes and fantasies and have some fun.  It's a great portion of what this country is all about...

Mako

OK, I just saw this and just couldn't let it go, Sorry.

How long have I been shooting CAS? Is that the question? I think I've posted it over and over again. Not quite a year. Got it? I've done well (2nd) and I've done poorly (2nd from last). I've posted both.

So, how long have you been shooting CAS? According to the Tejas Caballeros site, you're up to five CAS matches now. I shot four CAS matches last month. If you count last night's match. That would equal your total in the last 30 days. Don't worry, you'll get those scores up, I did, it will just take a little time.

Have a good day,

Bruce

[Camille Eonich]

Time to get back on topic.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

... Daniel it does make me rest easier if you are a charter member of W3G.  Of course I am a charter member of IDPA and I tired of the direction it took.  Are you a cross over from IMG?  Or did you just have the chance to do W3G and make your start there? I've sort of avoided the W3G matches intentionally.  Have you found they vary from area to area?

Let's see, how to answer....

Having been born and raised in the Deep South, I've been shooting since I was knee-high to a duck.  I first got into SASS, and then into W3G, based on the recommendations of the fellow who owns/operates the public shooting range I go to.  Never visited IDPA, IPSC, etc., though I did consider it several times.

I know, trust, and regularly shoot/jaw/drink with the folks who founded W3G, and also know/have shot with other leaders in the sport.  They are all quite aware of the very concern you expressed.  Their intention, so far as I have determined, is to ensure that W3G is, first, and foremost, a very safe sport, and that it always remains a CAS sport (not "IDPA/IPSC with spurs").

Do W3G matches differ from area to area?  I'm sure they do, just like SASS matches do.  But they're all bound together by a common set of rules and expectations.

Too, the W3G rules are very similar to SASS in just about every respect save two.  The first and most obvious difference is that, in SASS, you cannot move once you've cocked the gun, while in W3G you must move in order to find/engage all the targets.  The second difference is that the shotguns can be staged with two rounds loaded.  In 97's this means that the hammer is down on an empty chamber with two in the magazine.  With doubles this means that the action remains open, with a round in each chamber.  Shotguns are almost always staged horizontally, on a table or other platform.

I think you owe it to yourself to at least observe a W3G match.

[Delmonico]

I'm pretty sure that, at that range,  coins would have been just as deadly as buck shot.

I've never seeen/heard any eye witness accounts of the shooting. Where did you see them? I'd be interested in reading them. Yea, I know something about aerodynamics and wondered how efective that would be.

Bruce

Well since you don't seem to have much knowledge about areodynamics then all I can say is either believe the myth or go try it for yourself.  Don't know where I saw it and don't see any need to search for it, but the coronors report said he was killed with buckshot from his own shotgun.  It's out there somewhere, feel free to find it if you want.