The role of the shotgun in history and CAS

[Mako]

Yea, I know, it's just to(sic) much of a "Gammer" thing for me. I'd like to see less shotgun sillyness.
Bruce

So I see his purpose for starting the thread as using history as an excuse to attempt to eliminate some of the use of the shotgun.
Camille

We (Faultline) had a stage that required 12 shotgun rounds and I don't believe any of the shooters had any misses. So, what's the point?
Bruce

That's the quote that I was responding to about what's the point in any of it.
Camille

Camille,
I fear you are wasting your breath.  You've already discovered the nature of the problem.
We do this for fun, yet some want to swagger and interject "reality" into it.  Excuse me?  I mean really!  Look around at your next match, we are bunch of adults dressed like "Cowgirls and Cowboys" (no offense intended Daniel... ).

Daniel in his friendly and calm manner later states,

What's that old saying?  Oh, yes.  "Opinions are like noses -- everybody's got one."  And thanx to the First Amendment we're all entitled to express them (even if others think they smell!).  Fiddler's got his, you've got yours, I've got mine.  Ain't life grand? 

True...but, how many years have you been doing this Camille? How many years Daniel?  Now ask Fiddler, how many months.

Everyone has an opinion, but some are respected more than others.

Thank you Camille (and all the others like Del, RattlesnakeJack, A.J., et al) for interjecting some reality into the thread! The reality is not that our stages are not realistic, if they were most of our shots would be taken as we ran away looking for cover, or consist of 3 or 4 shots. 

The reality is that this is what we do for fun.  Shotguns are fun!  Most of us would improve our scores if we just worked on our reloading skills, that's what makes it FUN!  At every match I go to I think we have the MOST FUN on the shotgun portion.  We usually end up shouting encouragement to shooters who miss a target, giving them aiming corrections.  Sometimes even handing them shells from our belt when they have emptied theirs  .

Look at the signature below Fiddlers avatar,   "Defender of all things fun!"  Ironic isn't it?

Have a great 4th all!  Let's take the time to remember those who have fought for our freedom and endured hardships to allow us dress up like our western heroes and fantasies and have some fun.  It's a great portion of what this country is all about...

Mako

[Dr. Bob]

Mako,

Only you and Cammie know anything about CAS??

[Mako]

 

Mako,

Only you and Cammie know anything about CAS??

No Bob,
There are over 80,000 people who know about CAS (I put NCOWS in a different category and I think you do as well). Some of the newest ones with numbers above 81,000 think they can teach their Grandmother to suck eggs.  What Camille and I know (and almost everyone else on this thread knows) is that CAS is a game, a hobby, a passion, a sport.  There weren't many B-Western cowboys in the 19th century.  I don't have to tell you this, you're not a newbie, you know that those that are striving for authenticity tend to migrate towards NCOWS.  There is a nod to history in SASS with some of the categories trending towards more authenticity.  But in the end it is a bunch of people having fun and engaging in activities and interests they share with others.

For some reason which has me puzzled me is the side you are taking.  Is there something that Camille or I have ever done to you?  I must say I am surprised, I always took you as a level headed sort that could usually see through BS. 

Every once in a while we get someone who thinks they are God's mouthpiece to all things "manly."  We only hope it will pass.

Regards,
Mako

[Daniel Nighteyes]

Mako,

You mentioned SASS and NCOWS, but inadvertently omitted Western 3-Gun (W3G).







<--------- Nitpickers is us.

[Delmonico]

And GAF plus numerous independant clubs.   Get with the program.  Some differances in the rules, but the basic game is about the same.  Get as many hits as possible in the least amount of time with the perscribed firearms.  Pretty well seems to be the name of the game unless I'm mistaken.

Perhaps a bit more time on the research would be in order.

[Fiddler Green]

Camille,


Daniel in his friendly and calm manner later states,
True...but, how many years have you been doing this Camille? How many years Daniel?  Now ask Fiddler, how many months.


Look at the signature below Fiddlers avatar,   "Defender of all things fun!"  Ironic isn't it?

Have a great 4th all!  Let's take the time to remember those who have fought for our freedom and endured hardships to allow us dress up like our western heroes and fantasies and have some fun.  It's a great portion of what this country is all about...

Mako

Oh, Mako, I think we all know you hate me by now, so, give it a rest!

To be exact, I've only shot about 35 CAS matches; all in the last year. I've never claimed I've been doing this for years, that your department. I did shoot four CAS matches last month along with two muzzleloading matches and one long range rifle match.  So, when (if ever) was your last match, Mako?

I've finished as high as second, in a match and as low as third from last, so I'm working on my consistency. Last month, I was third in one match and third from last in another. What's your best finish, Mako?  You have finished, right?

Yes, I defend what's fun. Sorry you don't understand that. Maybe that's why I live 10 minutes from the beach. Maybe that's why I have four motorcycles, four pairs of skis, three surfboards, a bunch of SCUBA gear and a ton of other stuff in my garage. I guess you just need to get out more. Step away from the keyboard and go shooting or something.

The 4th of July is not about those that fought for our country, that would be Memorial Day or Veterans Day (Armed Forces Day is for those that are STILL fighting for our Country) it's about the founding principle of our country. But, thanks for thinking about me as one who actually HAS fought for his country.


Now, getting back on track:

As I said, I shot four CAS matches, last month, and am getting a little bored with the same old stages and sweeps. So, I'm trying to spice it up. Springfield Slim and I got one of the 3 clubs we shot with to do a stage where you started out by shooting a muzzleloading rifle and pistol, but most stages are pretty much the same with the same type of targets. So, I'm looking for new ways to spice it up and, as a history buff, I'm looking at things that really happened to give me ideas.

The more I looked at real gunfights, the less you see the shotgun come into play. At the matches, that I've been to anyway, rarely does anyone miss with the shotgun. What does happen is that someone hits with it but the knockdown doesn't go down or the target doesn't come off the star and then you have a guy complaining the rest of the match that they got rooked by a target and that's not fair. Yes, I said "guy" and not "person" because it always seems to be a guy that complains and never a women. Way to "take it like a man" ladies! I've shot pop-ups a few times but most of the time we don't as they take to long to re-set and the managers of the ranges don't appreciate the contents of the cans being spread all over the place.


Bruce

[Mako]

And GAF plus numerous independant clubs.   Get with the program.  Some differances in the rules, but the basic game is about the same.  Get as many hits as possible in the least amount of time with the perscribed firearms.  Pretty well seems to be the name of the game unless I'm mistaken.

Perhaps a bit more time on the research would be in order.

Del,
I was specifically addressing Bob,  If he is a 3-Gun shooter or a member of GAF I am unaware of it, but he is a member of NCOWS.  Don't you think my posts are long enough as it is without going into all possible flavors of CAS?

Later my friend,
Mako

[Delmonico]

Dr. Bob is a well repected member of GAF.  The point is, despite some differances in rules, the goal of all these groups as far as the shooting part is concerned is to hit as many targets in as short a time as possible or was the last time I checked.  Just like all forms of racing cars involves trying to cross the finish line first.

[Mako]

Mako,

You mentioned SASS and NCOWS, but inadvertently omitted Western 3-Gun (W3G).
( Note the picture of Daniel goes here)<--------- Nitpickers is us.

Daniel,
You often make me smile.  Yes I did omit 3-Gun,  not only because of what I told Del above, but because it is UPSA and IMGA creeping into CAS and perhaps I am worried about it.

When 3-Gun came on the scene I had mixed emotions, I am a former 3-Gun shooter, but not the  Cowboy type, the USPSA  and IMG type.  Still have the Benellis, AR-15/M1A/SR-25 raceguns and  23 round pistols in the safes.  I hoped it would give a home to those young hot guns shooting slicked up Rugers and Marlins (though short stroked'73s seem to have taken over) in .38 spl and '97 pumps would have a place to take a crack at the ultimate times. 

Unfortunately there are not enough 3-Gun clubs and they come back to our local matches  and change the flavor.  I have no problem with shooting with these guys, most if not all are really great guys.  It's the effect they have on the other club members.  The next thing you know is that "Ralph Six Gun" or "Annie Sweet Shooter" feel intimidated when their stage time is 40 seconds with 1 miss (45 seconds) and they are "outscored"  by  "Johnny Hot Gun" with 20 seconds and 4 misses.  They feel like they don't have the gear and don't understand the cavalier attitude of the young hot gun.  The spray and pray confuses them and in some cases actually demoralizes them.

As I said I welcome all shooters and if there wasn't a format these hot guns were practicing for then the scores would take care of themselves.  They would slow down and take it more seriously when "Annie Sweet Shooter " placed above them because she shot a clean match.  But local SASS matches just end up being practice days.  We saw the same thing in IPSC and IDPA matches.

Well I digress, thanks Daniel.  For what it's worth I like nit pickers...

Your friend,
Mako

[Mako]

Del,
Thank you.  But Bob wears his NCOWS designation on his "sleeve."  That's all I am saying.  You are very correct, they are all games, but with different equipment and uniform requirments. 

I think your original post said it all,

Anybody who thinks shooting steel targets really has a lot to do with history has been living under a rock...
Del

Well said my friend,
Mako

[Mako]

Bruce,
I have told you several times I don't hate YOU, I dislike your swaggering attitude and the way you instantly become an expert.  From all appearances you do it on every forum and every board you post on.  You also do it at your local clubs.  I don't really think you know exactly what they think.  A couple are not too amused about some of your claims that you have made to us.

It's true, I have tried with you Bruce, both on threads and in offline communications.  You want to preach to the choir and have us nod in agreement.  For instance your taking my 4th of July salute out of context, or rather should I say you added to the context.  Have I not thanked you for your service before, actually several times?  Have you ever reciprocated, even once?  Nope, in fact you besmirched my service.  The only reason I am even relating that is to show your attitude Bruce.  You have the countenance of a bitter old man. 

Lighten up already!  You have so many toys, but they obviously bring you no joy.  The reason you live 10 minutes from the beach is because that's the area you grew up in.  Proximity to the beach, having toys, shooting 35 matches or any of that doesn't make one happy Bruce.

I'll be your friend Bruce, I think most people here and where you participate will be as well.  I believe I can respect you, but only after you quit trying to mold us into what you want.   You're not one of the Wild Bunch Bruce... This has been here long before you.

About your complaints about the targets, that's life... and furthermore it is a game.  Sometimes targets don't drop, you should try shooting banks and banks of small round steel falling plates sometime or bowling pins that topple over and spin around on the table, failing to fall to the ground, mocking you and destroying your time in other even more competitive sports.  Sometimes in real life people take one right through the gizzard and still don't drop (actually quite often).  I have seen it and you probably have too.  But that is reality, this is a game.

So I will wish you a happy Independence Day, and I will be remembering our forefathers and those who fought for that Declaration that this holiday commemorates.  Without them it would be meaningless words on piece of paper. The reason I said that Bruce is because people today think they are simply "rights" that have been conferred by something they couldn't even describe.  Those rights were quantified and canonized by men willing to risk all they had to achieve them and fought for until this very day by patriots who put it all on the line for it.  The Constitution as grand a document as it is took 4 months to pen (after years of debate and even longer to ratify) and was 11 years after the Declaration of independence.  As a stellar piece of philosophy and opus to the spirit of man there has been no equal to date (I am of course speaking in secular terms).

Regards,
Mako

[Daniel Nighteyes]

Daniel,
You often make me smile.  Yes I did omit 3-Gun,  not only because of what I told Del above, but because it is UPSA and IMGA creeping into CAS and perhaps I am worried about it.

I think you can stop worrying, Mako, 'cause it ain't like that at all -- at least, not where I shoot W3G.   There are some blindingly fast folks, to be sure, but they're also blindingly fast in SASS matches (which they all also shoot). Also note that I'm a charter member of W3G, for whatever that's worth.

We return you now to your regularly-scheduled thread...

[Delmonico]

I thought it was the W3G that were the stitch Nazi's and NCOWS that were the blinding fast shooters.

Course us GAF folks jsut drill and march.  Or is it just rumors and rumors of rumors, or more important, several choices so folks can belong to one or more groups that they like.  Come on Daniel, we don't conform to some folks idea of what we really should be doing, guess we're just bad.

[Mako]

I thought it was the W3G that were the stitch Nazi's and NCOWS that were the blinding fast shooters.

Course us GAF folks jsut drill and march.  Or is it just rumors and rumors of rumors, or more important, several choices so folks can belong to one or more groups that they like.  Come on Daniel, we don't conform to some folks idea of what we really should be doing, guess we're just bad.

Too funny... No Del you and folks like Daniel are the good guys, I appreciate both of you.  And Daniel it does make me rest easier if you are a charter member of W3G.  Of course I am a charter member of IDPA and I tired of the direction it took.  Are you a cross over from IMG?  Or did you just have the chance to do W3G and make your start there? I've sort of avoided the W3G matches intentionally.  Have you found they vary from area to area?

Regards,
Mako

[Dr. Bob]

Mako,

I went and shot today with one of the local SASS clubs this evening.  They had a Black powder shoot with 5 side matches and a BP shoot at dusk.  Had a great time.  Shot my 130 year old Wesley Richards S X S 12 ga. and knocked down all 4 shotgun targets!

[Delmonico]

Also note that I'm a charter member of W3G, for whatever that's worth.

The low number would impress folks who are impressed with low numbers.

[Texas Lawdog]

I guess if you got bad eyes or just can't shoot very good, the Ol' 12 ga. fits the bill.  Of course you gotta be close.  I've heard of folks loadin' rolls of dimes in shot gun shells.

[Delmonico]

I guess if you got bad eyes or just can't shoot very good, the Ol' 12 ga. fits the bill.  Of course you gotta be close.  I've heard of folks loadin' rolls of dimes in shot gun shells.

Old myth for the most part, not very areo-dynamic, lots of BS stories like that out there.  Could add a full page on why it won't work, but no need to bore you and take up that much server space.

[Fiddler Green]

Old myth for the most part, not very areo-dynamic, lots of BS stories like that out there.  Could add a full page on why it won't work, but no need to bore you and take up that much server space.

didn't Billy the Kid kill Robert "Bob" Ollinger, with his own 10 gauge shotgun, loaded with coins ($.05, as I recall).

Bruce

[Delmonico]

Only if you believe the dime novels, eye witness acounts say he was hit by buckshot, since it killed him dead, I would believe that before I would believe the other.

As I said, think about the aerodynamics involved.