The role of the shotgun in history and CAS

Fiddler Green · June 18, 2009, 01:42:39 PM

I've been looking at the real use of shotguns in the wild west and it seems like they are badly mis-represented in CAS stages. Almost every CAS stage that I've ever shot, ended with the shotgun. Yet, from what I can find in the history of the old west, shotguns, while certainly used, were not exactly as widely used as in say "3:10 to Yuma". Also, in most cases, the shotgun was almost never reloaded under fire.

Three classic examples of this are: The gunfight at the OK coral, the Killing of Bill Brocius during the "Revenge ride" and the jail break of Billy the Kid. To refresh everyone's memory: Doc Holiday emptied the shotgun he was carrying into Tom McLaury, dropped it and then drew his pistol, Wyatt Earp emptied his shotgun into Bill Brocius, dropped it and then drew his pistol and Billy the Kid shot Bill Ollinger with both barrels of his own (Bill's), 10 gauge dropped it and rode out of town....leaving the shotgun at the scene.

This tends to make me think that more realistic stages should be drawn up with the shooter holding the shotgun at cowboy port arms firing two rounds and moving on to other weapons. Much like the OK Coral and the shooting of Bill Brocius, after two blasts from a shotgun, it was abandoned and people went for rifles and pistols to finish the action. So should we!

And, NO, I'm not recommeeding dropping the shotgun after it's been used!

That would be a major safty violation.

Bruce

Fairshake · June 26, 2009, 07:07:53 AM

There is very little if any "correct history" in CAS shooting. The Judge and his pards were auto pisto shooters looking to kill the boredom. That's from his lips to me at a CAS shoot. What cowboy owned 2 revolvers, a rifle, and a shotgun? I read of one gun fight in Dodge City where two drunk cowboys went outside fired at each other until the guns were empty. Then continued to drink when neither was hit. Not even a reload!! My!! MY!!

Adirondack Jack · June 26, 2009, 10:32:04 AM

As Tex said on TV "It's not the way the west was, but it's the way we THINK it was, and that's close enough."

Beats heck outta "at the buzzer, drink five ounces of rot gut, stagger to alleyway and with both barrels, backshoot your target."

Fiddler Green · June 26, 2009, 10:47:49 AM

Quote from: Adirondack Jack on June 26, 2009, 10:32:04 AM
As Tex said on TV "It's not the way the west was, but it's the way we THINK it was, and that's close enough."

Beats heck outta "at the buzzer, drink five ounces of rot gut, stagger to alleyway and with both barrels, backshoot your target."

Hummmmm interseting option you have thre..... I was thinking more of: "At the buzzer, empty the shotgun, cleaqr it and get to shooting............."

I think it would be more realistic to start a stage with a loaded shotgun at Cowbot port arms, fire it and move on rather then have stages where the shotgun is re-loaded over and over again.

Let's face it, reaqrly does anyone really miss with the shotgun and if they do they probably are not going to be able to do very well with the rifle and pistol anyway. So, why so much time on the shotgun?

Bruce

Adirondack Jack · June 26, 2009, 12:16:59 PM

CAS has evolved taken on it's own life as it were. Shotgunning, especially reloads, have become an integral part of our TIMED game. Ya wanna shoot FASTER, work on loading and clearing the shotgun (ya don't even need to shoot live ammo, it's the rest of it that matters most).

Fiddler Green · June 26, 2009, 01:25:05 PM

Quote from: Adirondack Jack on June 26, 2009, 12:16:59 PM
CAS has evolved taken on it's own life as it were. Shotgunning, especially reloads, have become an integral part of our TIMED game. Ya wanna shoot FASTER, work on loading and clearing the shotgun (ya don't even need to shoot live ammo, it's the rest of it that matters most).

Yea, I know, it's just to much of a "Gammer" thing for me. I'd like to see less shotgun sillyness.

Bruce

Pole Cat Pete · June 26, 2009, 07:38:47 PM

there are some of us that really like to shoot shotgun.

Wow send us off to the corner for the rest of the day !!!!!!!!!

Pete

Dalion · June 27, 2009, 01:18:52 PM

I see where Fiddler is coming from on this and the history buff in me agrees. But I love shooting shotguns, so far in my life I have fired many thousands of shotshells and would love to see more challenging targets in the shotgun portion of a stage. More jump up targets, or swinging targets. So I would definitely rather see two good challenging shotgun targets than 4 to 12 shots a stationary targets.

Delmonico · June 27, 2009, 01:22:58 PM

Anybody who thinks shooting steel targets really has a lot to do with history has been living under a rock.

Besides most folks never fired even one shot in anger from any type firearm.

If you want to really relive history get involved with Living History and do it in a public venuse.

Now that's not saying CAS/WAS is bad, but I never seen any documentation for someone shooting steel targets in the 19th Century.

RattlesnakeJack · June 28, 2009, 02:41:43 PM

Quote from: Fiddler Green on June 18, 2009, 01:42:39 PM
..... Almost every CAS stage that I've ever shot, ended with the shotgun. ......

All of the other issues under discussion aside, I'd say that the reason most CAS scenarios include, and end, with shotgun is to maximize the likelihood of a complete and accurate total time reading for the shooter .... The incredibly light rifle and pistol loads used by many shooters often will simply not register on the timer - if the R.O. doesn't notice that in a stage which ends with either rifle or pistol, the time expended in firing the last shot(s) may be missed! I have R.O.'d "mousefart' .38 shooters whose pistol and rifle loads all failed to register on the timer unless I got so close to them, holding the timer ahead of their body, that I would literally constitute an interference with their movement!

On the other hand, it is very unlikely that the sound of even the lightest of shotgun rounds will not register.

Dr. Bob · June 28, 2009, 10:07:25 PM

My 45 Colt loads make the RO wince!

Oh, and pray for a breeze!

Fairshake · June 30, 2009, 07:12:32 AM

RJ, I was spotting for one of our silver seniors that has trouble with his loading. He had to fire at a bird that was thrown from the popper when the gun fired it sounded like nothing but the primer. The funny thing was that the wad flew and broke the bird!! I'm 62 and have never seen such and probably never will again. So this is even quiter than a mouse fart load. A friend of mine now, Snoozer, said that the first time he spotted for me the blast blew out his ear plug. Ha!! Ha!!

RattlesnakeJack · June 30, 2009, 10:39:39 AM

Quote from: Fairshake on June 30, 2009, 07:12:32 AM
.... He had to fire at a bird that was thrown from the popper when the gun fired it sounded like nothing but the primer. The funny thing was that the wad flew and broke the bird!! .....

Well.... I don't suppose that the timer registered that shot!

Mind you - if that was the last round fired in the scenario, I'd be inclined to allow him the "time credit" anyway, just because of the break!

(He must have been dead on target ......)

Daniel Nighteyes · June 30, 2009, 11:04:27 AM

At the Deadwood Drifters match on Saturday, one stage had eight -- count 'em, eight -- shotgun targets. Two were poppers.

I got both poppers, and was feeling kinda proud. Then two of the counters swore that, on the first one, the only thing that hit it was the wad, and it went straight thru the center! [Just call me "Daniel O'Nighteyes", 'cause I must have the luck of the Irish!]

Camille Eonich · June 30, 2009, 10:09:45 PM

SASS is a fantasy sport and has little to do with history. The shotgun is fun to shoot and people like it. If you find yourself frustrated by the shotgun then you may want to work on your technique a little more or maybe you just picked the wrong type of shotgun.

side by sides are the devil.

Fiddler Green · July 01, 2009, 08:30:29 AM

Quote from: Camille Eonich on June 30, 2009, 10:09:45 PM
SASS is a fantasy sport and has little to do with history. The shotgun is fun to shoot and people like it. If you find yourself frustrated by the shotgun then you may want to work on your technique a little more or maybe you just picked the wrong type of shotgun.

side by sides are the devil.

Not what it's about. I've finished as high as second, in a match and had a third this past month so I can reload my shotgun well enough. I've also never missed with my shotgun. We (Faultline) had a stage that required 12 shotgun rounds and I don't believe any of the shooters had any misses. So, what's the point?

Then I saw 3:10 to Yuma and the shootgun was the featured gun. I started looking for real events where the shootgun was prominient and simply didn't find any cases where a shotgun was re-loaded under fire. That made me ask the question.

Bruce

Camille Eonich · July 01, 2009, 09:16:43 AM

So are you saying that because there was no misses that there is no point in shooting the shotgun in matches? What about those shooters that shoot clean on a regular basis? Should they quit shooting?

What's your average time for shooting a string of 6 shotgun rounds with and without aiming? You should be down in the 6 second range even with the hammered double if you are really good. There's a guy that we shoot with that can regularly put 6 down in the low 5s.

If it's boring you try speeding up until you start missing some. Then stay at that speed until you can regularly knock down all the targets then it's time to speed up again. Check Doc Shapiros site for reloading techniques and for some amazing runs!!!!

http://www.jspublications.net/records/records.html
http://www.jspublications.net/tips/BreakingTheShot/index.html
http://www.jspublications.net/tips.html

Daniel Nighteyes · July 01, 2009, 10:22:01 AM

I think Fiddler Green's entire purpose for starting this thread is to discuss the difference between the role of the shotgun in CAS and its actual role in Old West gun-battles.

I think he's right. In most actual gun-battles the shotgun was emptied once, then dropped in favor of another firearm (usually one or more pistols). Since most of CAS is a fantasy sport, we create stages that require at least one reload for the double. (BTW, the largest number of shotgun targets I've ever encountered in a single stage was sixteen. Since my loops can only carry 12, I had shells sticking out of everywhere that was legal.)

I don't know much, but I do know this. In the real world I surely wouldn't stand out in the open and reload a shotgun while folks were shooting at me. If I had the shells, and the cover, and the time, I might reload it. Otherwise it goes down into the dirt as I'm emulating the rear legs of a donkey...

Camille Eonich · July 01, 2009, 12:45:37 PM

Most of our shooting is done in the open which in a real live gun fight one wouldn't do anyway.

From what I understand about history people were far more likely to own a shotgun than any other type of gun because they were less expensive and could be used in more ways than a rifle. Often in CAS we mimic gun fights but just as often we are defending the "home range". Many households back then didn't own pistols or even rifles and rifles aren't real practical for self defense up close and in confined quarters.

Often here we will start a stage with a shotgun, move with it to another position and shoot a different type of weapon, pick the shotgun back up and knock out the bad guys that crept up on us when we were taking out the ones further away then move to another position and shoot another type of weapon, also taking the shotgun with you and then finish off with the shotgun.

The shotgun is fun for people. It's easy to learn how to use and easy to hit with. It's also one of the most difficult to truly master and has been known to lose matches for people.

QuoteYea, I know, it's just to much of a "Gammer" thing for me. I'd like to see less shotgun sillyness.

So I see his purpose for starting the thread as using history as an excuse to attempt to eliminate some of the use of the shotgun.

QuoteWe (Faultline) had a stage that required 12 shotgun rounds and I don't believe any of the shooters had any misses. So, what's the point?

That's the quote that I was responding to about what's the point in any of it.

BTW, not that I would do it but even in a gunfight if you are laying down 6 accurate shots with a shotgun in 6 seconds then you are laying some pretty good cover our for yourself.

Daniel Nighteyes · July 02, 2009, 07:14:13 PM

Quote from: Camille Eonich on July 01, 2009, 12:45:37 PM
So I see his purpose for starting the thread as using history as an excuse to attempt to eliminate some of the use of the shotgun.

Camille,

What's that old saying? Oh, yes. "Opinions are like noses -- everybody's got one." And thanx to the First Amendment we're all entitled to express them (even if others think they smell!). Fiddler's got his, you've got yours, I've got mine. Ain't life grand?

Just for the record, I shoot a mule-eared SxS and enjoy heavy-shotgun stages, 'cause that's a real challenge. I even "invented" another way to shuck the empties. Instead of jerking the opened shotgun BACK to eject 'em, I rotate it hard to the right, lke this:

(Note that my left thumb is already cocking the rightside hammer.)

Regards, and Happy Independence Day!!!!

-- Nighteyes