Winchester Model 1873 -VS- 1892.

[Dispatch]

Other than cosmetic, what are the real differences between the Winchester model 1873 and the model 1892, in all aspects? Is an Octagonal or a Round barrel better?

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Good question;

I am interested particularly concerning SASS/CAS loads in pistol ammo.

The '73 is supposed to be the most simple and sturdy. The '94 is complex, difficult to field strip, and was made flr long cartridges like the 30-30 and 30-06; wether deserved or not, it has a history of getting jammed with short ammo like the pistol rounds that we fire.

The 92 seems to be the in-betwen gun. More difficult to field strip than a model 73, yet less complex that a Model '94

So I would be interested in, rather than hyperbole, actual experience firing all three weapons ...

Come on guys, tell us what you think!

[Blackpowder Burn]

The comparison in a nutshell:

Model '73 (includes Henry and '66)
1.  Lifter mechanism lifts cartridge into alignment with the chamber, and cartridge is parallel to the bore. 
    This results in the bolt pushing the cartridge straight into the chamber, resulting in almost no possibility of
     jamming.
2.  This action is somewhat sensitive to overall cartridge length.  A cartridge that is too short will potentially
     allow a second cartridge to partially enter the lifter block, thus jammig the action.  One that is too long,
     will of course not fully enter the lifter and jam the action.
2.  When worked over by a good gunsmith, this is normally the smoothest action.
3.  the '73 action is not as strong as the '92, so you can't shoot "magnum" loads in it without risk of
     damage.

Model '92
1.  The cartridge carrier lifts the cartridge at an angle, where the bolt must catch the upper rim of the
     cartridge and push it forward while the cartridge tilts down to level to enter the bore.
2.  Trying to run the rifle really fast can result in stovepipe jams, as the cartridge doesn't always have time
     align properly with the bore before the bolt closes.
3.  The '92 is typically not a smooth as a '73 action
3.  The '92 is a much stronger action than the '73
4.  The '94 is a scaled up '92.  Thus the '94 has the same general characteristics.

As for barrels, typically octagon barrels are found on rifle length barrels (20 to 24 inches) and round barrels are found on carbines (20 inches and less).  The choice simply depends on what you like the looks of and what feels best when you handle it. 

I have a 24 inch Model '73 and an original '92 carbine.  I prefer shooting the '73. 

[Long Johns Wolf]

As AD says plus some:
I have owned a Winchester 94 carbine in .45 Colt made during the 1980s because I won her at a shoot. Never liked the action for pistol cartridges and sold her. So, cannot comment with authority.
I have owned an ASM 92 rifle with 24" ocatagon barrel in .45 Colt. Beautiful finish, most accurate rifle in .45 Colt I ever had. Did OK (the old eyes) up to 150 yards. Used her during 2 seasons of CAS activities. After 2 allegedly competent gunsmiths worked the rifle her reliability level eventually reached 95 % which is not enough. Sold her to a pard who liked the accuracy.
I currently own an AS 92 short rifle with 20" barrel custom converted to shoot .44 Colt. Only recently a kowledgable gunsmith made her 100 % reliably cycling this stubby cartridge. Holds 12+ in the tube. Nice, light and handy, quick alignment of the factory sights. Will safely digest the hottest loads that would blow up any 73 system. Reasonably accurate up to 100 yards. The action is not as smooth as one of the the 73 family. If I have the choice I would not use her in CAS activities.
I have used a 1982 production Euroarms 73 carbine custom converted to shoot .44 Colt for 2 seasons in CAS. That was and still is the most reliable and easy handling rifle I ever owned. The carrier needed a little adjustment by a competent smith because of the short rounds. But that is a small job only. Holds 12 + in the 19" tube. At CAS distances the piece is more than accurate and then some, but I will outshoot her with my AS 92 at longer distances because the 92 got the better sights & the bedding of the barrel of the 92 in rifle is superior to the 73 in carbine configuration.
My Uberti Henry custom convertet to shoot .44 Colt is my current match rifle just because. She came from the factory in .44 Special. The only adjustment needed was some filing of the carrier to cope with the short cartridge, easy job. Holds 15 in the tube. Not as quickly handling as my 73 but I just like her better. Top reliable and top accurate despite the lousy PC sights, up to 240 yards. The smokeless .44 Colt CAS loads I am using in the 73 and the Henry clock no more than ca. 800 fps (200 grainer).
Long Johns Wolf

[Dispatch]

My personal caliber of choice for a rifle is in the .45 Long Colt, as to keep it compatible with my 1858 Remington Conversion pistol. I am researching these Winchester rifles before I buy. It's a tough choice deciding between either the 1873 or a 1892-94 model. I'm trying to closely balance out the benefits between them. Question: is there anyone in the SASS community that sells new Winchesters already customized? I remember seeing someone being interviewed on the TV show 'Cowboys' on the Outdoor channel but I can't remember their name or if they sold the customized rifles they were displaying. I will shoot them an e-mail and see if they respond back. I would prefer an already loaded and gunsmithed rifle as opposed to a stock rifle 'out of the box' that needs modifying, even if it costs more money. On the barrels, I was told the Octagonal is the stronger of the 2, due to the thicker metal? I have no proof to this I was told. Any information is appreciated. 

[Dispatch]

Found'em!
http://www.longhunt.com/firearms/model-73.shtml#carbine
Long Hunter Shooting Supplies. Although they only carry the Winchester model 1873. 

[Blackpowder Burn]

You'll love doing business with Longhunter.  I've purchased 4 of his USFA  SAA's.  His work is outstanding and he is a real gentleman.

[Jefro]

The difference between the 73 and the 92 for this game is like night and day. The 73/66 is hands down the best, with the 94 Marlin next, however a well tuned Marlin in the right hands can keep up with a 73. If you're not stuck on 45LC the 44/40 is hard to beat due to less blow back, even more so if you plan to shoot BP. You already found Longhunter, can't  go wrong there he's one of the best, hope to one day have a pair of USFA. A few more smith's with ready to run 73s are Pioneer Gun Works, Cody Conagher, Cowboys & Indians, and Ottway Smith. I got my 73 and a couple of SXS from Pioneer, a pair of Smokewagons and Cattleman from Cody. Ottway is consider by many to be the best open top smith's around. Good Luck.

http://www.pioneergunworks.com/
http://www.codyscowboyshop.com/
http://www.cowboysandindianstore.com/
Ottway Smith aka Ron Snover email rwsnover@comcast.net

Jefro

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Hi, I already have a .45 Trapper on order from one of the above gunsmiths.

I normally shoot .45 Schofields from my two Schofield pistols (less wear and tear on the pistols, easier to reload with 'cowboy load' according to the member who reloads for me).

Right now I shoot .45 LC in my Winchester, and the Schofield .45 in my pistols.

If I am already having a gunsmith 'do' an new Taylor's '73 Trapper for me, what is the possiblity of having the rifle set up from the get go for .45 Schofield?

Is it within the normal scope of gunsmithing to have this done (I know anything can be done with the proper amount of money, but I am talking within the normal scope of gunsmithing here .... hey, I am on a fixed income here!)

But I guess my first question is, could it even be done?

Thanks in advance for all your help!

[Abilene]

WaddWatsonEllis,
Very often the '73 will work just fine with the .45 S&W cartridge, no changes required.  Mostly it is a matter of the OAL of your ammo.  Contact the gunsmith who is tuning your new rifle.  Tell him the OAL of your ammo and he can probably tell you right away if it is likely to work once he has your rifle in hand and can look at the dimensions of the carrier.  He might ask you (or the guy who loads for you) to make up a few dummy rounds with no powder or primer and send them to him to test it.

If there are any tweaks to be made to the bevel on the front of the carrier or to the extractor, they should be minor.

[Dispatch]

I must say, I like the 'Tear Down' option on the model 1892. This makes it completely interchangeable with other calibers. I don't see this option for the 1873 model. I understand thought that the 1892 came out "after" the west was pretty much over and done with. The Frontier had already been conquered. Thus ending the 'Old West' era. For the U.S., WW I starts only 25 years later.

[Stillwater]

The comparison in a nutshell:

Model '73 (includes Henry and '66)
1.  Lifter mechanism lifts cartridge into alignment with the chamber, and cartridge is parallel to the bore. 
    This results in the bolt pushing the cartridge straight into the chamber, resulting in almost no possibility of
     jamming.
2.  This action is somewhat sensitive to overall cartridge length.  A cartridge that is too short will potentially
     allow a second cartridge to partially enter the lifter block, thus jammig the action.  One that is too long,
     will of course not fully enter the lifter and jam the action.
2.  When worked over by a good gunsmith, this is normally the smoothest action.
3.  the '73 action is not as strong as the '92, so you can't shoot "magnum" loads in it without risk of
     damage.

Model '92
1.  The cartridge carrier lifts the cartridge at an angle, where the bolt must catch the upper rim of the
     cartridge and push it forward while the cartridge tilts down to level to enter the bore.
2.  Trying to run the rifle really fast can result in stovepipe jams, as the cartridge doesn't always have time
     align properly with the bore before the bolt closes.
3.  The '92 is typically not a smooth as a '73 action
3.  The '92 is a much stronger action than the '73
4.  The '94 is a scaled up '92.  Thus the '94 has the same general characteristics.

As for barrels, typically octagon barrels are found on rifle length barrels (20 to 24 inches) and round barrels are found on carbines (20 inches and less).  The choice simply depends on what you like the looks of and what feels best when you handle it. 

I have a 24 inch Model '73 and an original '92 carbine.  I prefer shooting the '73. 

I wouldn't say the 1894 Winchester is a scaled up 1892, drop the lever on both and see the difference. The action, and linkage, is entirely different on the 1894.

The 1892 is more of a scaled down 1886 Winchester.

Bill

[Blackpowder Burn]

Stillwater,

You are, of course, correct.  I misspoke myself there.  The '92 is basically a scaled down '86.  Guess my "sometimers disease" was acting up when I wrote that! 

[Dr. Bob]

Aggie D.,

Been there done that!   It's just real hard to beat the 1860 - 66 - 73 toggle link Winchesters!   My $0.02 worth.

[Stillwater]

Stillwater,

You are, of course, correct.  I misspoke myself there.  The '92 is basically a scaled down '86.  Guess my "sometimers disease" was acting up when I wrote that! 

Not a problem...

I freqently have a disengagement between my brain, and my fingers, when I type... Sometimes, it is a serious disengagement...!

Bill

[Wills Point Pete]

 Late to the party, as usual. Hope all the good food isn't gone.

Not that it matters but I don't think one out of a hundred of us can actually use the speed advantage of the '73 over the '92 Something that hasn't been mentioned is the strength advantage of the '92 action over the '73. Now this is unimportant to someone who only uses their rifle for CAS, they don't (for good reasons) allow ammo hotter than a '73 will digest.

Still, a '92 will cheerfully eat ammo that will blow a '73 to pieces. My '92 clone in .45 Colt will shoot ammo that equals that old 300 grain Remington .45-70 load. Does this matter to the CAS shooter? No. It does matter to the CAS shooter that would also like to hunt with that same rifle. How about that shooter who lives in the country? Would I rather confront a livestock or tractor thief with a rifle that puts a 250 grain bullet out the muzzle at twelve hundred fps or at close to 2000 fps?  My '92 clone spits a 250 grain Hornady jacketed hollowpoint out at the latter speed. I have not recovered one of those bullets inside a white tail deer after several one shot kills.

The '73s are quite a bit heavier. This is good for drawing a bead on a target, not so good if you're walking uphill on a hunt.

[Deadeye Dick]

I'll take a 73 anyday. I don't think you can beat their old west good looks and the pure fun of shooting them. I shoot black powder in my 44-40 only and I use it for hunting too.
I do agree if you're going to use smokyless heavy loads then the 92 is the way to go.

Deadeye Dick

[Long Johns Wolf]

FWIW: Win 73 Musket (clone) with bayonet. Lots of style points.
Long Johns Wolf

[Blackpowder Burn]

I bet the posse marshall and the counters stay WAY out of your way! 

[Dispatch]

FWIW: Win 73 Musket (clone) with bayonet. Lots of style points.
Long Johns Wolf

Wow! That is a unique, one of a kind Winchester. I've never seen one fitted with a bayonet. I assume that is a Springfield style bayonet? Is the bayonet an aftermarket add on or a factory installation? Is it PC? It looks swell either way.