Shotguns in the old west

[Fiddler Green]

After re-reading this thread, I starting thinking about the Match I shot last night and all accounts I can remember of shot guns being used in the old west. First, I'm not an expert on old west history but there are several that jump out: Doc Holiday emptying the shotgun into Tom McLaury, dropping it and then drew his pistol, Wyatt Earp emptied his shotgun into Bill Brocius, dropped it and then drew his pistol and Billy the Kid shoot Bill Ollinger with both barrels of his 10 gauge (Bill's), dropped it and rode out of town....leaving the shotgun at the scene.

So, my question is: other then in the movies, how many times was a shotgun really re-loaded in an actual gun fight? Historical references please!

I know; most gunfights started by a shotgun blast were ended by the same shotgun blast. But, were there any gunfights that started with rifles or pistols and ended with a shotgun?  Bank robberies,  maybe? What about the Northfield, Mn raid?

Bruce

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I agree that stages should reflect either;

1.  Actual fights, as best as can be determined, or

2.  REALISTIC scenarios, and not necessarily a gunfight.  An example might be saving your most promising bull-calf from being torn up by a pack of KI-Yutes.

When a match writer needs five to ten new matches every club shoot or practice it is hard to stay fresh.  However stereo-typed "Pump 'n Dump" stages should be avoided. I think that there should be at least one novelty, or at least whimsical, stage at each match.

Comes down to our "spirit of the game".  There are two , or maybe its three, aspects.

1.  Shooting the Cowboy way, with period firearms

2.  Studying and recreating history, and to top it all

3.  Have FUN, its just a game!

[Delmonico]

In reality as far as gun fights, I've never seen any documentation of a person using a shotgun, a rifle and 2 pistols.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

In reality as far as gun fights, I've never seen any documentation of a person using a shotgun, a rifle and 2 pistols.

Yup, somehow the rifle just doesn't figure into it. Shotgun and pistol are close-up, rifle is more of a reach-out-and-touch-someone-from-a-distance.  I can see an either/or, but not all three...

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

To carry more than one long gun and one, or maybe two, pistols around expecting a fight is a mite impractical. 

Maybe our gunfighter needs a GUNCART!?

[Delmonico]

Yup, somehow the rifle just doesn't figure into it. Shotgun and pistol are close-up, rifle is more of a reach-out-and-touch-someone-from-a-distance.  I can see an either/or, but not all three...

Depends on what you consider a gunfight, myself two or more folks shooting at each other, no matter the distance is a gunfight.  Plenty of rifles were used, and well documented, most likely more than shotguns.  A shotgun is good up close and a rifle works both places.

[Fiddler Green]

To carry more than one long gun and one, or maybe two, pistols around expecting a fight is a mite impractical. 

Maybe our gunfighter needs a GUNCART!?

So, this got off track in a hurry.

Focus, people, does anyone know of a single, documented account of a shotgun being re-loaded, during a shootout in the old west?

Bruce

[Harley Starr]

Let's get this close to being back on track.

First of all, when the Old West turned Wild it was not exactly like a First Person Shooter game where you holstered this, and drew that, and let rip, then scrounged for more quarters. No way! If a scattergun was your only option then that's what you used, and you used it sparingly.

Now Fiddler, regarding your reloading question, I'm afraid I can't answer that intellegently.

[St. George]

No.

I've read accounts of killings where a shotgun was used, but never a documented reload, and I've got a pretty extensive reference library.

A shotgun - in and of itself - is a powerful deterrent, and wise folks don't go up against them.

That's why they were favorites of Express Guards and Railroad Guards, as well as Lawmen.

In truth, there weren't all that many 'shootouts'  in the 'real' Old West - but they dominate the 'reel' Old West and the 'paperback' version, as well.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Fiddler Green]

Now we're headed where I thought this was going to go..................

In every account of a shootout involving a shotgun, that I know of, the shotgun was never reloaded. But, there are at least two cases where a shotgun was used and then discarded for a hand gun.

Bruce

[Four-Eyed Buck]

There might be two, although undocumented. You might consider the the Northfield Bank defence by citizens, and the last robbery attempt by the Daltons. Again defence by citizens. Big possibility of reloads there............Buck

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Very few gunfights can be anticipated.  They often happen in the blink of an eye, and if you think and act quickly enough you might make it.  You "run-what-ya-brung". Tactics are a luxury.

There are some situations where trouble is anticipated and plans made.  The OK corral and Northfield are examples.

But, as a very experienced tactics instructor often advised; - "Few plans survive contact."

His first corolory was; - "If things go right, it's a bonus."

How about greater freedom in how the shooter handles a stage?

One time at our club there was a stage with over 40 steel silouettes scattered over a 25 yards range.  How we engaged was our problem, just get 'em all down.  I fired both pistols dry on the nearest targets, emptied the rifle at the the farther/smaller targets, and cleaned up with the '97 single loading.  I won it, by making a plan.

[Fiddler Green]

There might be two, although undocumented. You might consider the the Northfield Bank defence by citizens, and the last robbery attempt by the Daltons. Again defence by citizens. Big possibility of reloads there............Buck

The key phrase here is "possibility of reloads". I can find on record of anyone being wounded by a shotgun in the Northfield raid. The only person hit by a shotgun, in Coffeeville, was Emmet Dalton; dropped by a blast from both barrels of Cary Seaman's shotgun. It appears that those were the only shots Cary fired, as Emmet surrendered to him.

Bruce

[Fiddler Green]

Very few gunfights can be anticipated.  They often happen in the blink of an eye, and if you think and act quickly enough you might make it.  You "run-what-ya-brung". Tactics are a luxury.

There are some situations where trouble is anticipated and plans made.  The OK corral and Northfield are examples.

But, as a very experienced tactics instructor often advised; - "Few plans survive contact."

His first corolory was; - "If things go right, it's a bonus."

How about greater freedom in how the shooter handles a stage?

One time at our club there was a stage with over 40 steel silouettes scattered over a 25 yards range.  How we engaged was our problem, just get 'em all down.  I fired both pistols dry on the nearest targets, emptied the rifle at the the farther/smaller targets, and cleaned up with the '97 single loading.  I won it, by making a plan.

In both cases you mentioned, only one side was prepared for a fight. And, in the case of the Northfield Raid; not very well. As a veteran of more then a few armed conflicts and a student of military history, I understand the characteristics of meeting engagements and what happens in them. But, that's beside the point. 

What I keep reading, in western history, is how at least one side, if not both were expecting a fight well in advance of the event taking place. Train and bank robberies were a good example as were events like the Lincoln County Wars. But, there are those examples were it was building for some time like to OK Coral and Tuffs-Hickok gunfight. Yes, there are others where it just happened.

Where I'm going with all this is that most (if not all) CAS stages I've shot end with the shotgun and the re-loading of same. Yet, most real gunfights, at least the ones where a shotgun was used, started with the shotgun and went on to pistols and rifles without any examples of reloading the shotgun under fire. So, why are stages NOT started with the Shotgun at cowboy port arms and then, after two shot moving to pistols and then to rifle; or rifle then pistols.

Yes, before you point out the obvious, I am working on some stages that more replicate actual events for upcoming matches. That's what this is all about.


Bruce

[St. George]

I'm thinking of moving this to the 'Shooter's Meeting' forum, as it's devolving into a discussion of shooting stages and opinions.

Those topics are better suited to that forum.

Scouts Out!

[Fiddler Green]

I'm thinking of moving this to the 'Shooter's Meeting' forum, as it's devolving into a discussion of shooting stages and opinions.

Those topics are better suited to that forum.

Scouts Out!

I was going to start this topic over there myself. I posted here to get a history of the shotgun in true gunfights but that never really happened.

Bruce

[R.T. Rangebum]

Hey Fidler,

I think that one of the reasons that a large majority of stages end with the shotgun is that; of the three firearm types used in CAS, the shotgun has the loudest report. This is important when using an electronic timer as some of the lesser calibers and some of the loads being used in the major calibers will not be reliably picked up by the timer. I have always been told that if I write a stage, to never end with the rifle for the same reason.

Rangebum

[Fiddler Green]

Hey Fidler,

I think that one of the reasons that a large majority of stages end with the shotgun is that; of the three firearm types used in CAS, the shotgun has the loudest report. This is important when using an electronic timer as some of the lesser calibers and some of the loads being used in the major calibers will not be reliably picked up by the timer. I have always been told that if I write a stage, to never end with the rifle for the same reason.

Rangebum

Well, that would be a good way to get the people that use "mouse fart" loads to have to put some powder in their shells!

No, really, I've RO'ed enough that I know to hold the timer up when some's shooting "light" loads and to monitor it during the stage.

Bruce

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Sorry St. George & Fiddler;  It was my posts that got us off History and onto stage writing.

The point I was trying to make is that Cas match scenarios based on historical analysis, while probably instructive, can end up being as boring and stereotyped as the current practice.

If tactical experience is the object, even a very low priority object, canned exercises are limited in there usefulness.  As most situations are very fluid, practice in dealing with the unexpected might be more productive.

In my mind, whatever is left of it, the essence of the issue was to make stage writing more historically relevant. Of course, the issue arose out of poor, and stereotyped stage writing.  History and stage writing were intertwined.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

But, as a very experienced tactics instructor often advised; - "Few plans survive contact."

I believe that was initially written by Helmuth Karl Bernhard Graf von Moltke as "No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy."