Shotguns in the old west

[Delmonico]

Thanks Will, I have some old charts I can maybe scan when I get home, if our geek gets the scanner working today.

I think with out looking, it was the early 1890's that Winchester first offered loaded shotgun ammo.

It was when the ammo compainies formed the alligence about that time the Tatham shot size was addopted as standard.  Will check on the date later.

[Delmonico]

FG, just shoot working cowboy in NCOWS and you won't have to worry about the shotgun bothering you.  If there ain't a club in your area, I'll give you three guesses what you can do.

[The Connemara Kid]

Don't forget William Munny out of Missouri.

He walked into a room full of armed townies at Greeley's Saloon with a double bbl shotgun.
He shot Skinny, dead with one shot and when he aimed at Little Bill and squoze the trigger, he suffered a misfire.

He threw the shotgun at Little Bill, drew both his sixguns and blazed away until he was the sole survivor of that shootout.

Some years later, Mrs. Ansonia Feathers made the arduous journey to Hodgeman County, Kansas to visit the last resting place of her only daughter. William Munny had long since disappeared with the children... some said to San Francisco where it was rumored he prospered in dry goods. And there was nothing on the marker to explain to Mrs. Feathers why her only daughter had married a known thief and murderer, a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition.

[Stillwater]

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Tuffs-Hickok gunfight. Yes, there are others where it just happened.

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Bruce

That was Dave Tutt, that succombed to Hickok in their Springfield, Missouri gunfight...

Bill

[Story]

The thing is, that most shotguns used in the Old West WERE NOT shot-barreled!  With black powder, a longer tubed gun "shot harder," especially in the days before or at least shortly after chokes were introduced.  Regardless, folks recognized the shotgun was a shortrange proposition, and was used for that purpose!  With double-barrels most popular, one or two shots at close range was about all you needed.  If you got close enough, you didn't need more, and if you didn't and the opposition got his artillery in operation, you probably wouldn't have another chance!

That's the sense I get - that if you were dragging a double barrel to a fight, you wanted to be the first and only shooter. More of a justified-or-not murder or assassination, then a two-way shooting range.

On October 7, 1877, however, [Charles Howard] returned to El Paso from Mesilla, New Mexico, where he had taken refuge. Three days later he found [Louis] Cardis dictating letters in the store of Solomon Schutz. Howard killed Cardis, who had attempted to hide behind a desk, with two shotgun blasts.

http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/CC/fca49.html

What this account doesn't tell you, is that Cardis had a revolver but Howard walked in - said what he had to say - and then dispatched Cardis before he could pull his piece.

[Story]

While we're on the topic, I vaguely remember reading that some miscreants would load their shells with a stack of dimes. Better penetration & destructive power than lead shot - has anyone read anything that could corroborate this tale, or is it complete tripe?

[Delmonico]

While we're on the topic, I vaguely remember reading that some miscreants would load their shells with a stack of dimes. Better penetration & destructive power than lead shot - has anyone read anything that could corroborate this tale, or is it complete tripe?

Remember, tripe is useful.

Was discussed in another thread a sort time ago, it is only better if you can change the laws of physics and ballistics.   

[Story]

Remember, tripe is useful.

Was discussed in another thread a sort time ago, it is only better if you can change the laws of physics and ballistics.   

Thanks, I'll have to look that up.  Was the effeciveness versus Werewolves covered? 

[Delmonico]

I'll save you the trouble:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,26800.0.html

[Stillwater]

If I remember what I read correctly, Olliinger showed the Kid two shotgun shells and said they were loaded with dimes.

Since the coronor said Ollinger was killed with buck shot, that must mean Ollinger was harassing the Kid, with the story that the shells loaded with dimes.

I agree with Delmonico that the dimes would be a poor load because of their shape , weight and the way the dime would fly through the air.

The slight weight of the individual dimes, would mean they wouldn't retain much energy, when they struck something. The dime would have to strike something with the edge of the coin to even have a chance to penetrate.

How well do you think a dime would penetrate clothing?

What kind of a pattern would a load of dimes have when fired through a shotgun?

Bill

[Delmonico]

I long ago chalked that one up to a story invented by someone who didn't understand ballistics. 

Don't make sense someone would waste a lot of money on an inferior shell.  Wonder how many dimes it would take to fill a 2 5/8 inch 10 guage shell?

[Will Ketchum]

A couple of years ago the History Channel tried it and it sure was disappointing   The dimes flew every which way and when they did hit they didn't penetrate much.  Most of the time they screw up their attempts at proving or disproving history but they got that one right.

Will Ketchum

[Delmonico]

A couple of years ago the History Channel tried it and it sure was disappointing   The dimes flew every which way and when they did hit they didn't penetrate much.  Most of the time they screw up their attempts at proving or disproving history but they got that one right.

Will Ketchum

Thanks Will, someone said that in the other shotgun thread, I ain't seen it, but pretty much sounds like it did as anyone with a knowledge of ballistics would think.

Ballistics myths are almost as funny sometimes as Urban Legands.

[Shotgun Franklin]

Carpet tacks don't work well either.

[St. George]

Flechettes worked quite well - but they were loaded nose-to-tail, and they were expected to have different flight paths...

Dimes would behave in a similar manner - at short range, they'd carve through a target as each took on it's own path, with a very few holding together in some sort of pattern- but 'short range' means exactly that - and it's measured in feet, not yards.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Shotgun Franklin]

At across the room distances almost anything, including rubber balls, can kill. For some odd reason people look at buckshot, little round balls, and conclude that something sharper or harder or different, dimes(?), will work better. For nearly all around use, within range limits, those 'little round balls' work pretty danged good. I've used buckshot in several shootings and like the results.

[Stillwater]

Rock salt works on the rear end of the neighbors horses. Horses which he wouldn't keep up, inspite of the herd law...

When he complained, my Uncle asked him if he would like some too... The neighbor went home quicker than he arrived, and stayed there...!

Bill

[Daniel Nighteyes]

At across the room distances almost anything, including rubber balls, can kill.

That's why my in-the-house defensive load is three high-brass #4 birdshot, followed by three #2 buck.

[Kidd Krystin]

 ;DHeck, leaving aside lethality, dimes would make a darned expensive load.  If you only loaded five dimes into each shell you've used up one day's wage for the average cowboy.

[Harley Starr]

;DHeck, leaving aside lethality, dimes would make a darned expensive load.  If you only loaded five dimes into each shell you've used up one day's wage for the average cowboy.

If he saved his dimes he could buy more shells. LOL