Shotguns in the old west

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Thanks Danny;  I knew that tactics instructor was a smart guy; - having such a brilliant fellow to quote!

I was quoting his simple adaptation of the truism.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

I was quoting his simple adaptation of the truism.

Yup Chuck, it certainly was, is, and will always be a fundamental truth.  Count von Moltke was a contemporary of R. E. Lee and W. T. Sherman.  They don't make 'em like that any more...

[Books OToole]

So, this got off track in a hurry.

Focus, people, does anyone know of a single, documented account of a shotgun being re-loaded, during a shootout in the old west?

Bruce

The short answer is NO.  I do not have any documentation of a reload of any weapon, let alone a shotgun.


The Northfield raid is a possibility;  but not likely.  The James/Younger gang were in a hurry to get out of town.  If a townie got off a couple shotguns rounds off, by the time he reloaded his targets were long gone.  It was sort of a running fight; at least for the James/Youngers.


Books

[Fiddler Green]

I believe that was initially written by Helmuth Karl Bernhard Graf von Moltke as "No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy."

I've always thought that quote was a typical Prussian aristocrat overstating the obvious. Remember, in every battle, there are two sides and at least one is going to fail in its goal. That means that, at the very best, 50% of all battle plans fail: sometimes, both sides fail.

In respect to the statement: "Moltke the Elder" seemed not to believe his own words as he was the master of planning with every detail taken into account. "Luck favors the prepared"...now, who said that?

Bruce

[Fiddler Green]

The short answer is NO.  I do not have any documentation of a reload of any weapon, let alone a shotgun.


The Northfield raid is a possibility;  but not likely.  The James/Younger gang were in a hurry to get out of town.  If a townie got off a couple shotguns rounds off, by the time he reloaded his targets were long gone.  It was sort of a running fight; at least for the James/Youngers.


Books

With respect to Elmore Leonard: I can't find any instances of it either. What did come out of all this is that a lot of shotguns seemed to get dropped. I'm always making fun of Hollywood, when people drop empty guns, but it seems there is some evidence in history to support it.

Bruce

[Montana Slim]

I'm out of town at the moment, so I'm unable to give exact details....perhaps this will jolt someone else......
I recall a tale of a gent using an 1887 Winchester shotgun to foil a robbery..knocking several bad-guys from the saddle. I believe a train or depot was being held up. Does working the lever on an '87 two, three or five times count as a reload?

Also, I don't consider all WAS/CAS scenario use of the shotgun to be a defense resulting from hostile intentions. The shotgun was commonly used to fill the pot or eliminate a pest. I don't need a first hand documented reference to know Great-Great Grampa reloaded his shotgun after discharging it at pidgeon, prairie chicken, fox or other...who would write of something so trivial?

If looking for documentation of a reload during a gunfight, concentrate on a situation where the gunner ONLY had a shotgun at their disposal....don't worry if they specifically mention reloading, just count the shots. If one has a second firearm (holstered handgun) it is much simpler & quicker to pull that gun when the other runs dry. My thinking too, as I legally carry a sidearm in addition to my shotgun during deer hunting season. I prefer not to drop my shotgun. This is where years of duelist shooting pays off.

Regards,
Slim

[Stillwater]

I don't know if this adds anything to the discussion. However, I used google, and found this...

http://www.oklemem.com/J.htm

William Aaron "Bill" James, City Marshal

City of Texhoma, Oklahoma

About 4 A.M. the morning of Sunday, May 20, 1962, City Marshal, 24, James and Deputy City Marshal Joe Dale Hartman had taken Kenneth James Hoover, 24, home after finding him drunk near the downtown area of Texhoma. Hoover did not stay home and walked back downtown where the officers took him into custody again after a brief fight. The officers took him to City Hall where Hoover hit Marshal James in the head and escaped. Hoover went home and got a 12-gauge shotgun and returned to City Hall because he felt the officers had been harassing him. Hoover saw Marshal James through a window and opened fire on him, killing him. Hoover reloaded and went inside where he saw the unarmed Deputy Hartman go into a room and close the door behind him. Deputy Hartman leaned against the door to keep Hoover out. Hoover then fired through the door, fatally wounding Hartman. The shotgun was found at the scene by responding officers and Hoover was located hiding in a ditch a few blocks away. Marshal James was survived by his wife and two children.

Bill

[Trailrider]

IMHO (based on my historical reading, NOT from personal experience, mind you), there were two types of encounters where shotguns were used in the Old West: First, where there was a chance encounter resulting in a firefight, and a shotgun was the only longarm at hand (and where there might or might not be another weapon handy).  This might be where an express messenger was riding shotgun on a stage coach or inside an express car, or where unarmed citizens grabbed whatever came to hand from the local hardware store (Northfield, MN, and Coffeeville, KS, for example).

The second type is where the combantant(s) were taking a shotgun with malice aforethought, for example, at the O.K. Corral, or the example given above.  The notorious, if not-so-well-known pistolero, Jim Levy, was apparently so feared by his contemporaries, that he was eventually cut down with a shotgun blast from a dark alley!

The thing is, that most shotguns used in the Old West WERE NOT shot-barreled!  With black powder, a longer tubed gun "shot harder," especially in the days before or at least shortly after chokes were introduced.  Regardless, folks recognized the shotgun was a shortrange proposition, and was used for that purpose!  With double-barrels most popular, one or two shots at close range was about all you needed.  If you got close enough, you didn't need more, and if you didn't and the opposition got his artillery in operation, you probably wouldn't have another chance!

[Daniel Nighteyes]

... recognized the shotgun was a shortrange proposition, and was used for that purpose!  With double-barrels most popular, one or two shots at close range was about all you needed.  If you got close enough, you didn't need more, and if you didn't and the opposition got his artillery in operation, you probably wouldn't have another chance!

I like that!  Shotgun as "handheld artillery!"   

[Shotgun Franklin]

I'm just trying to finish reading 'Gunfighters, Highwaymen & Vigilantes' by McGrath (about the border area between California and Nevada).
One thing he found in his reasearch was that although there were Stage Robberies, there was never a Stage Robbery when gold or silver shipments were being carried. The big difference was that those Stages carried Shotgun Messengers.
You need large equipment to face a shotgun.
BTW, he also learned that every Stage Robbery reported happened at night!

As a Cop I've been in several shootings where I used a shotgun. Just based on my experience, I have only had to reload once and that was during a lull in the action. Two loads of buckshot pretty much ends most fights.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

As a Cop I've been in several shootings where I used a shotgun. Just based on my experience, I have only had to reload once and that was during a lull in the action. Two loads of buckshot pretty much ends most fights.

Just the person to ask:  Did y'all use double-aught, or Number 3 buck?

[Shotgun Franklin]

I've always had a preference for '0' or #1. I shot a guy with #4 and was disappointed with it's lack of penetration. To be honest at less than 20 yards as long as you stick to #1 or bigger I don't think there's much difference.
When I was on the Narcotics Raid Team I used #6 birdshot. At 10 feet it was plenty and wouldn't go through a wall but that was for a very specific reason, I'd never carry birdshot as a defense/offense load on a regular bases.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

I've always had a preference for '0' or #1. I shot a guy with #4 and was disappointed with it's lack of penetration. To be honest at less than 20 yards as long as you stick to #1 or bigger I don't think there's much difference.
When I was on the Narcotics Raid Team I used #6 birdshot. At 10 feet it was plenty and wouldn't go through a wall but that was for a very specific reason, I'd never carry birdshot as a defense/offense load on a regular bases.

At 10 feet it probably wouldn't matter WHAT was in the shotshell now, would it?      Thanks for the prompt reply.

[St. George]

When I carried an Ithaca Model 37 - I used OO and Flechettes.

They were markedly effective.

However, it was used far, far after the Old West had turned a time of memories, and not germane to this thread.

Let's keep on track, and dial it back 120 years.

Scouts Out!

[Shotgun Franklin]

That brings up the question of what shotgun shell loads were available from about 1874 to 1900?
In a muzzle stuffer you could use what you wanted to or what was available. I'm wondering about what you might find at the General Store or Gun Shop for a center fire shotgun?

[Delmonico]

Till very late in the period, (exact date depends on the ammo company, but we're talking late 1880's) shot shelss were sold either empty or with just to powder, primer and wads.  One put their own shot in them and crimped them.  Two reasons for this, one there was no tool to mass produce crimped rounds.  Roll crimping each by hand was a slow process.

The other is there was no standard for shot size, one shot tower's #6 might be anothers #8.  I'm away from my referance material right now, but the banding together of the ammo companies in this period lead to the adoption of the shot size standard of the Tatham shot tower in St. Louis, the same system US made shells use today.  Companies in other countries often use this same system for shells sold in the US, but not always.

[St. George]

The fastest way to find that out is to look for one of the 'Sears, Roebuck and Co.' or 'Montgomery Ward' reprint catalogs that pre-date 1900.

They're in reprint once more, and can sometimes be found at 'Barnes & Noble's' or at your local Public Library.

Look for the 'big' ones - the ones that are about the size of a telephone directory.  (Smaller, paperback ones exist - but they cut some pages from them - the bigger ones are un-cut and just filled with arcane stuff.)

You'll find all of the available ammunition in those pages - and remember - they were the major suppliers to the Dry Goods trade, as well as being the two largest mail order houses.

There are also a number of posts - both on this forum and on the 'NCOWS' forum - that deal with ammunition specifically.

A look through the 'back pages' of both forums might prove interesting.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Fiddler Green]

I don't know if this adds anything to the discussion. However, I used google, and found this...

http://www.oklemem.com/J.htm

William Aaron "Bill" James, City Marshal

City of Texhoma, Oklahoma

About 4 A.M. the morning of Sunday, May 20, 1962, City Marshal, 24, ..........
Bill

That was in 1962....not the old west.

Bruce

[Fiddler Green]

There are five good examples of the use of a shotgun in the "Wild West": The O.K. Corral, The Lincoln County Courthouse escape, The Coffeeville Raid and (I can't think of their names now!) episode of Wild West Tech where the Bounty hunter was shot by the Horse thief (someone out there will remember it); all at close range. In two of those four cases (Emmet Dalton and the Bounty Hunter), the victim survived. IN ALL of those cases, the shotgun was not reloaded. In at least three of them, the shotgun was dropped at the scene. After killing Bill Brocius, with his shotgun, Wyatt Erp dropped it and drew his pistol.


Now, to be fair, Doc Holiday did not start out with the shotgun (Described as a short barreled "Couch gun"); he had been given the shotgun by Virgil Erp who himself had barrowed it from the Wells Fargo office. So, I doubt he had any extra shells on his person. Billy the Kid took Bob Olinger's shotgun from Deputy James Bell, so, he probably didn't have any extra shells, either. Carry Seaman discarded his shotgun to disarm the wounded Dalton. Now, Erp was on the "Revenge ride" so if anyone would have had more shells, on their person, it would have been him! Yet, no reload.

As I recall, Wild West Tech speculates that the shotgun might have been a muzzleloader with out sufficient powder or with bad or poor powder. That would have made it very slow to reload. All the others were cartridge guns.

Like I said: It seems shotguns, in the old west, spent allot of time on the ground while shots were being fired around them!


Bruce

[Will Ketchum]

The 1897 Sears, Roebuck catalog has both black powder and smokeless loaded shells. The BP loads go from 1oz of 10 shot to 1 1/4 oz of 4B.  There is also B, BB, and even a 1 1/8 load of 5B.  In the smokeless loads there is no buckshot loads shown  but there are various loads of birdshot ranging from 9 to 4s.  This is for the 12 gauge.  No 10 gauge BP loads shown and only birdshot for the it in smokeless.

Will Ketchum