60 open top a bit too "tuned"

Dick Dastardly · June 07, 2009, 09:34:52 AM

My left hand 1860 open top is a mite too tricked out. When I pull the trigger the hammer stops at ½ cock. If I pull a little harder it drops all the way and fires the round. So, those of you that know, do I need to replace the hammer, sear or trigger, or what? The dang trigger is way too light as it is. I like a light crisp trigger, but this one is downright whisper light. I really like the brace of 60s and I want to shoot them a lot more, but they sure seem fragile compared to my ROAs. . .

DD-DLoS

Flint · June 07, 2009, 12:16:24 PM

If you can pull the trigger at half-cock and fire the gun, usually you need a new hammer. If the hammer has fallen to half-cock and hit the sear several times, you will probably also need a new trigger/sear.

It sounds like the full cock notch is very shallow, so that the trigger pull is so short the sear nose is not clear of the half-cock notch, so will strike there and stop. If you can pull and fire from there, the hook is most likely broken off and without the undercut, the sear will pull off.

Another possibility, if the sear is mashed flat, or broken off enough to be wider than the half-cock undercut so it won't enter and the hammer stops there, the hook may be intact, but the trigger is definitely out of action..

Most likely after that abuse, you need both a hammer and a trigger, see VTIgunparts.com.

Dick Dastardly · June 07, 2009, 05:31:24 PM

Thanks Flint,

I've never taken a Pietta 1860 apart, but I'm going to do it. I'll be looking for the conditions you posted.

I sure like the way the guns point and shoot. When they are running right I find it easy to shoot a clean match.

DD-DLoS

Cuts Crooked · June 07, 2009, 06:13:04 PM

How much have you shot that gun without a complete tear down? It's remotely possible that it jist needs a good cleaning. if they's crud built up in it, it could cause the condition yer 'splain'in 'bout. Howsumebber, if dat's da case, mos likely the trigger is toast ennyway. But iffin dat trigger don' engage the half cock REAL good wen it's clean, den it's time to replace da hammer AND da trigger.

Mako · June 07, 2009, 08:03:50 PM

Quote from: Cuts Crooked on June 07, 2009, 06:13:04 PM
How much have you shot that gun without a complete tear down? It's remotely possible that it jist needs a good cleaning. if they's crud built up in it, it could cause the condition yer 'splain'in 'bout. Howsumebber, if dat's da case, mos likely the trigger is toast ennyway. But iffin dat trigger don' engage the half cock REAL good wen it's clean, den it's time to replace da hammer AND da trigger.

It's definitely possible...

Dick, the rear end is basically just like any Colt style pistol you have ever disassembled. You can look at an online video for taking a SAA aprt and it would look virtually identical. You already know how to take the barrel and cylinder off.

You have my number, call if you have any questions.

~Mako

Fox Creek Kid · June 08, 2009, 03:24:15 AM

Quote from: Flint on June 07, 2009, 12:16:24 PM
If you can pull the trigger at half-cock and fire the gun, usually you need a new hammer...

Flint, do you ever replace the cams? I read where "Nate Kiowa Jones" just drills out the old Italian integral cam and press fits in a new cam.

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_434_435_441&products_id=1069

Flint · June 08, 2009, 01:19:59 PM

Fox, I haven't replaced any yet, but it certainly can be done, carefully, as the hole will be very close to the half cock notch, but the diameter if the stud in the DGW description is smaller than the cam and gives a bit more clearance.

The new cam, if it's shaped right would probably be better than the cam on the existing Uberti hammer, as they always need toolmarks polished out of them, and thebottom has a step that's a bit high for the bolt wing to start its climb.

Perhaps I will order some of the cams from DGW and check them out. They are cheaper than I could make them for in time spent, and if they are good steel and shaped well, worth the price.

Fox Creek Kid · June 08, 2009, 01:24:10 PM

I'd bet you'd almost need a jig set up to drill out the old cam.

Montana Slim · June 09, 2009, 05:42:46 AM

I've been replacing Pietta cams with Dixie parts for a number of years. If you need to drill one out, do so from the opposite side. Much easier. Alternative is to grind the cam flat and proceed from that direction.

My Uberti guns haven't worn a cam out (yet).

Regards,
Slim

Flint · June 09, 2009, 12:25:25 PM

Thanks, Montana, it's good to know the Dixie part is OK. It's so cheap, it would be hard to make one in time spent for the price.

Fox Creek Kid · June 09, 2009, 12:55:28 PM

Quote from: Montana Slim on June 09, 2009, 05:42:46 AM
I've been replacing Pietta cams with Dixie parts for a number of years. If you need to drill one out, do so from the opposite side. Much easier. Alternative is to grind the cam flat and proceed from that direction.

My Uberti guns haven't worn a cam out (yet).

Regards,
Slim

Slim, GREAT info!!! One big question: how is it that you position the new cam to be pressed into place at the correct setting (angle)? I figure Colt has a special jig of some sort.

Lone Oak · June 10, 2009, 08:48:44 AM

FCK,
On the ones I've done, I made a minute scribe mark or center punch dot on the hammer next to the position of the highest point of the cam.
L.O.

Fox Creek Kid · June 10, 2009, 06:46:29 PM

Quote from: Lone Oak on June 10, 2009, 08:48:44 AM
FCK,
On the ones I've done, I made a minute scribe mark or center punch dot on the hammer next to the position of the highest point of the cam.
L.O.

Thanks, that'll work!!

Dick Dastardly · June 13, 2009, 12:40:25 PM

Light was good, mood was right, so I took 'er apart. I'd never worked on an open top before, but they are dirt simple. Some ham handed klutz with round ended screw drivers had taken it from together before. Lots of buggered screws. I cleaned 'em up best I could and I'll be replacing all of them. The hammer had part of the ½ cock notch broken away. The full cock notch was worried away till there was most of nothing for the sear to engage. The sear was peaned over and had a big burr on it. I cleaned up everything and tumbled the parts in DD Ceramic Porcelain tumbling media.

After putting it all back together, it works. But, I've ordered a new hammer and trigger from Dixie. I'll replace the screws when I fit the new parts.

I'm surprised at the sloppy work that must pass for gunsmithing. That was sure a hack job. Now, I'm going to look at the other pistol. It runs good, but after seeing it's mate, I'm afraid of what kind of work I'll find.

Interesting design. Very fragile compared to my ROAs and RVs. I still like the way they point.

DD-DLoS

Dirty Brass · June 13, 2009, 05:11:14 PM

It's always ugly to go in and clean up someone elses bad work. I'm guessing the internal parts were worn out, and not butchered by some previous owner? Sounds like the gun may have been abused a little. I like the way mine points too, but like you say, way more fragile than the Rugers. I have one '60 wall hanger that suffered a chain fire and knocked everything out of spec years ago. Tried rebuilding the inards, but the arbor was bent a little, and threads stripped when I removed it. Never could get it timed right after that. Oh well.....

Have you shot it since rebuilding or just tested it by hand? I alway am a little uneasy when test firing one that I rebuilt to some extent

Dick Dastardly · June 13, 2009, 10:41:15 PM

The timing is still good and I'm shooting cartridges via a Kirst Konverter cylinder. The cylinder is tougher than all the rest of the gun combined. Walt uses very good steel. I'm mostly concerned about the sear. This gun won't go to a match without new parts.

I'll shoot the 60 tomorrow. There's a stray cat around here that wants to collect a lead pill.

DD-DLoS

Fox Creek Kid · June 13, 2009, 11:20:46 PM

Quote from: Dick Dastardly on June 13, 2009, 12:40:25 PM...Interesting design. Very fragile compared to my ROAs and RVs. I still like the way they point.

DD-DLoS

That's because the "Rooger" is a modern design and for many, myself included, has about as much sex appeal as Rosie O'Donnell for a prom date!!

Cuts Crooked · June 14, 2009, 08:40:42 AM

Quote from: Fox Creek Kid on June 13, 2009, 11:20:46 PM
That's because the "Rooger" is a modern design and for many, myself included, has about as much sex appeal as Rosie O'Donnell for a prom date!!

Ya know...we need a "pukey" type smiley face on this board!

Dirty Brass · June 14, 2009, 09:33:25 AM

Quote from: Fox Creek Kid on June 13, 2009, 11:20:46 PM
That's because the "Rooger" is a modern design and for many, myself included, has about as much sex appeal as Rosie O'Donnell for a prom date!!

And I totally understand your feelings FCK. I like my Cimaron MP's, OT's , and RM II's just as much - it's just the durability factor.

Ya have ta admit one thing though - like the Roogers, one thing R.O. ain't is FRAGILE

Mako · June 14, 2009, 01:44:33 PM

Quote from: Cuts Crooked on June 14, 2009, 08:40:42 AM
Ya know...we need a "pukey" type smiley face on this board!

HAAAAAAAAAAAA!!! yep, I've seen geen ones with a look like they are going to puke. We do need something like that.

But what we really need is for FCK to quit invoking images like that!!! I still feel queasy. Would you speak with him? It will take weeks for things to get back to normal. Can someone hose this forum off and bleach it please?

~Mako