ROA with converter problem

Jethro "Black Jack" Harris · May 31, 2009, 05:55:13 PM

Howdy pards,
I was at a gun show today and bought a Howell Old West Conversions (usta be R&D) cylinder for my ROA. Dealer said, and I've read, that it should just drop right in. Then he said, and I've never read, that if it didn't, I should pound on it with a mallet. Sounded strange, but I bought it anyway. (Now, Dick, before you chime in and say I shudda gone with Kirst, it was there, I was there, and Kirst wasn't.) Long story short, I got it home and couldn't get it in the frame. Put a towel over it and pounded it a couple times and it went in, but won't turn. Can't pull the hammer back from half cock. Hard to get it back out.

I'm not a mechanically inclined hombre and don't have a lot of tools. I haven't found a gunsmith in my area that works on c&b revolvers. Short of giving the cylinder back, which the dealer said I could and he's been straight up with me in the past, what do I do? If it's something a clutz like me can do, even if I hafta buy some tools, I want to do it.

Any and all suggestions are welcome!

Muchas gracias, mi amigos!

Jethro

Pettifogger · May 31, 2009, 06:02:20 PM

DON'T pound on it with a mallet. They are supposed to be drop-in, but every mechanical device has tolerances. I bought two R&D's for mine. Neither cylinder would fit in one gun and both would fit in the other. Had to do a little fitting. If you don't know how to fit a cylinder take it to someone that does. It doesn't take much. Sounds like yours might need a little material removed from the forcing cone, BUT it is impossible to tell without seeing it or some really clear closeup photos. On mine, I had to machine a few thousands off the face of the cylinder.

Dick Dastardly · May 31, 2009, 06:24:37 PM

Howell and Kirst are good friends and long time acquaintances. They both respect each other. Regardless of who made your conversion cylinder, it should slip in and out of the gun without fuss or hammers. Get if fitted right and enjoy the versatility of a gun that can shoot in way more categories than most.

I love being able to pick and choose according to my mood and the match. Also, with both C&B and conversions, you can be very nimble in choosing your category and making it work without compromise.

Ya dun good.

DD-DLoS

Jethro "Black Jack" Harris · May 31, 2009, 07:12:59 PM

Quote from: Pettifogger on May 31, 2009, 06:02:20 PM
Sounds like yours might need a little material removed from the forcing cone, BUT it is impossible to tell without seeing it or some really clear closeup photos. On mine, I had to machine a few thousands off the face of the cylinder.

Pettifogger - thanks for the advice...I tried to take some pix but I don't have a very good camera. I've attached the two best. Cylinder appears to be hanging up at the hammer end of the frame. Also, I'm not well educated on the finer points...what is a forcing cone and where is it located?

Jethro

Pettifogger · May 31, 2009, 07:48:26 PM

The back of the cylinder is flat so there is really nothing to hang up back there. Where the interference will be is most likely in one of two places. First, is the cylinder bushing, i.e., the projection on the front of the cylinder. If it is a little to long it may be binding in the frame. Take a caliper and measure the length of your original cylinder from the front of the bushing to the back of the cylinder. The back is flat so this should be easy. Next measure the R&D cylinder to see if it is a little longer. If the new cylinder is to long, it will bind or not go in the frame. The forcing cone is the back of the barrel where it faces up against the cylinder. That is the second place to look. There has to be a gap between the forcing cone and cylinder or it will bind up. Sometimes the binding will be a combination of the two. Don't remove any metal until you have determined what is causing the binding. If it is solely the cylinder bushing you can remove a LITTLE material from the front until it fits. If there is no cylinder gap, then you have to remove material from the back of the barrel. If it is both you have to juggle where you remove material. You don't want to wind up with to much cylinder end shake or to large a cylinder gap.

Cuts Crooked · May 31, 2009, 08:12:29 PM

QuoteFirst, is the cylinder bushing, i.e., the projection on the front of the cylinder.

Uh...58 Remingtons don't have a bushing. At least none of mine do

Jethro "Black Jack" Harris · May 31, 2009, 08:25:52 PM

Quote from: Pettifogger on May 31, 2009, 07:48:26 PM
There has to be a gap between the forcing cone and cylinder or it will bind up. If there is no cylinder gap, then you have to remove material from the back of the barrel. If it is both you have to juggle where you remove material. You don't want to wind up with to much cylinder end shake or to large a cylinder gap.

Again, thanks. With the bp cylinder I can shine a light thru at the forcing cone, but not with the conversion. The bushing is away from the frame on both cylinders. I don't own any calipers, but I know people who do and I'll measure within a few days. I'm gonna predict it will be the cone that needs machining.

JBJH

Jethro "Black Jack" Harris · May 31, 2009, 08:42:33 PM

Quote from: Dick Dastardly on May 31, 2009, 06:24:37 PM
Ya dun good.

Dick,
Thanks. And I just couldn't resist that little dig. But I do respect your posts cuz there's gold in them thar hills. I always learn something from you.
JBJH

Pettifogger · May 31, 2009, 08:44:53 PM

Quote from: Cuts Crooked on May 31, 2009, 08:12:29 PM
Uh...58 Remingtons don't have a bushing. At least none of mine do

Remingtons don't. What has that got to do with fitting a cylinder to a Ruger?

Cuts Crooked · May 31, 2009, 09:10:00 PM

Quote from: Pettifogger on May 31, 2009, 08:44:53 PM
Remingtons don't. What has that got to do with fitting a cylinder to a Ruger?

Duh!!!!!! I goofed! (thinkin' ROA, Remington Old Army

)

Cuts Crooked · May 31, 2009, 09:13:02 PM

Quote from: Cuts Crooked on May 31, 2009, 09:10:00 PM
Duh!!!!!! I goofed! (thinkin' ROA, Remington Old Army )

Probably a good thing....I might git ta thinkin" I'm intelligent otherwise!

Pettifogger · May 31, 2009, 09:32:52 PM

Quote from: Cuts Crooked on May 31, 2009, 09:13:02 PM
Probably a good thing....I might git ta thinkin" I'm intelligent otherwise!

Now that I see what you were thinkin, it makes perfect sense.

Angel_Eyes · June 01, 2009, 12:51:37 PM

Surely it would be better to remove material from the conversion cylinder, rather than the barrel forcing cone or it will alter the spacing for the original cylinder?
Has he looked at the mating of the two halves of the conv cyl, any burring between the two parts could be the problem.

Just my 2cents worth, AE

Jethro "Black Jack" Harris · June 01, 2009, 02:03:56 PM

Quote from: Angel_Eyes on June 01, 2009, 12:51:37 PM
Surely it would be better to remove material from the conversion cylinder, rather than the barrel forcing cone or it will alter the spacing for the original cylinder?
Has he looked at the mating of the two halves of the conv cyl, any burring between the two parts could be the problem.

Just my 2cents worth, AE

AE, Yes, I've checked the fit of the cylinder cap to the cylinder. It is flat, no deburring needed. As for which to mill, remains to be seen til after I can caliper the two cylinders. Thanks fer the 2cents...I need all the sense I can get.

Jethro "Black Jack" Harris · June 01, 2009, 08:13:01 PM

Quote from: Pettifogger on May 31, 2009, 07:48:26 PM
Take a caliper and measure the length of your original cylinder from the front of the bushing to the back of the cylinder. The back is flat so this should be easy. Next measure the R&D cylinder to see if it is a little longer.

Pettifogger, here are the measurements:

Conversion ROA
Total length 2.154 2.153
w/o Bushing 1.995 1.995

Measured several places, got slightly different results by a few thousandths. Now I'm at a loss. They both seem to be the same size. If I were to mill some off the conversion cylinder or the forcing cone, how much and what tool would I use. If the cylinder, would it be the bushing or the cylinder itself? I know people who worked in machine shops and can probably get some advice or tools from them. Either way, it will remove the bluing. Can that be put back on?

I really appreciate the advice.
JBJH

Pettifogger · June 01, 2009, 09:44:37 PM

It sounds like it has the same problem mine had. If your regular cylinder has a good gap and the new cylinder is tight against the barrel you don't want to take material off the barrel to fit the new cylinder because then as Angel Eyes noted you will have excessive gap on the C&B cylinder. Sounds like you need to take a few thousands off the face of the cylinder. To do that you need a lathe.

reloader4410 · June 02, 2009, 07:37:20 AM

Had the same problem, bought one on gun broker, wouldnt fit, wrong cap for the ROA sent it back ,got new one that works grate, no issues.

Jethro "Black Jack" Harris · June 02, 2009, 11:59:49 AM

Quote from: Pettifogger on June 01, 2009, 09:44:37 PM
Sounds like you need to take a few thousands off the face of the cylinder. To do that you need a lathe.

Thanks. I have a friend who has access to a lathe. His question to me was about the hardness of the steel. He usta work for a machine shop that made parts for me when I worked for Hewlett Packard...very tight tolerances, lots of different metals, so I know he knows his stuff.

Has this cylinder been hardened, heat treated, annealed, case hardened or anything of that nature? It will make a difference on the lathe set up I assume.

JBJH

Pettifogger · June 02, 2009, 12:01:46 PM

It's good steel, but it machines very easy.

Adirondack Jack · June 02, 2009, 12:39:16 PM

If yer friend has a lathe he knows how to use, he can do this job. Tell him to set it up between centers and indicate the runout of the cylinder face. Probably a few thou. If he simply squares it up it ought to be fine.