Conversion 1860 Over-Rotating Problem - FIXED

Skinny Preacher 66418 · May 27, 2009, 10:51:03 AM

I bought this R&D Pietta conversion cylinder used and am having problems with over rotation. The bolt seems to fit the notches fine, but will over-rotate unless you cock it nice and slow. The cylinder has 'lead ramps/grooves' on both sides of the bolt notch. Why? What I end up with is a fingernail thickness that is supposed to block into the bolt. Is there a remedy?

Pettifogger · May 27, 2009, 11:11:30 AM

Looks like someone ruined the cylinder. Putting the second notch on the thrust side of the notch is not a good thing. Really does make you wonder what the heck they were thinking or trying to accomplish.

Skinny Preacher 66418 · May 27, 2009, 12:09:50 PM

It appears that the double cut is standard issue:

Fiddler Green · May 27, 2009, 12:17:36 PM

Get yourself a new triger/cylinder lock spring and I'll bet it works fine.

Bruce

RRio · May 27, 2009, 12:26:28 PM

Some unscrupulous person passed off a ruined cylinder to you. Unless he was a total moron, he had to know that cylinder was useless. Could it be fixed? Yes, but at a cost more than a new cylinder.
You have to weld it up, re-turn the diameter, recut the notches, and recut the lead ins to one side only.

If it came out of R&D like that, then their QA person needs to be fired.

EDITED

Why in God's name would the do that?? There is no good reason for a double lead in like that. I would never buy a cylinder cut like that!

Flint · May 27, 2009, 12:42:00 PM

The two way notch leade is the way R&D makes the cylinder, and I asked them about it when I bought mine some time back. It has to do with having 10 notches instead of 5, and being able to rotate to the live chamber from the safety notch between. I do think, however, that it would work better if the live chamber positions were not double grooved.

I have 6 1860 Colts, 4 Uberti, and a 2nd and a 3rd gen, the R&D fit one of them without overtravel, so I use it with that revolver. The others could be retimed or adjusted to work, I'm sure, but as it worked with one as is, I left it there.

Skinny Preacher 66418 · May 27, 2009, 01:14:26 PM

The seller was not unscrupulous, as that is the way R&D designed it. There has to be some way to make the gun work better...since this is one of their main selling items. The trigger/bolt spring is basically factory new.

I have some ideas:

1) to thin the trailing end of the bolt...which would allow the bolt to drop into place sooner. This would loosen the lockup though and the hand would have to be fit right to hold the cylinder in place.
2) cut the angle of the bolt steeper...so that the leading edge of bolt is more of a knife edge. problem would be trailing edge wouldn't secure into notch similar to idea #1
3) I've read that the hand acts as a brake at full extent. This doesn't see very realistic in regards to the rotating mass of a loaded cylinder, but it may be worth looking into. A remedy could be to drill the frame for a stiffer coil-type handspring.

FYI, the hand length is just enough to line up the chamber with the bore...nothing more.

Pettifogger · May 27, 2009, 10:44:50 PM

It's hard to fully detail how to do something in a short written response. Here is what I would check. First, remove the hammer and hand and inspect the hand spring to make sure it is in good condition and not bent or broken. If it is to light or broke you can get over rotation. Next, remove the bolt, measure the head width and measure all the locking bolt slots to make sure the bolt fits into all the slots. If they all fit, then make sure they are fully engaging the bolt slots. On the front of the bolt (in front of the locking lug) there is a shelf. The shelf rests on the bottom of the frame when the bolt is fully up. It's purpose is to limit upward travel so the bolt won't over ride the hammer cam when the cylinder is out of the gun. The slots in the 60 Army are very shallow and with the double groove you need to make sure you have as much bolt engagement as possible. Cut a piece of paper (normal paper is around .004" thick) about 1/8" wide and a couple of inches long. You need three hands to do this, but this is what you have to do. With the trigger and bolt/trigger spring removed, lift the bolt just enough to get the paper under the shelf. Making sure the bolt is in a cylinder notch, push the bolt head down with a punch or screwdriver until it bottoms. Pull out the paper. It probably will drag which means the bolt is bottoming on the shelf rather than the bottom of the bolt slot. Remove a little material from the top of the shelf (so the bolt will go deeper into the bolt slot) retest and keep doing this until there is no drag on the paper. You now have maximum bolt lockup. Put the parts back into the frame and slip on the cylinder. Push it to the rear and cock the gun and cycle it a few times. If the bolt is not operating the leg on the bolt that rides over the cam on the hammer needs to be adjusted to make up for the extra depth that the bolt is now going into the cylinder. Once everything works, put the barrel back on and see if it over rotates. The other thing you can check, and its kind of hard since you can't see the bolt, is when the bolt is dropping. Cock the gun until you hear the bolt drop and STOP. Then take your hand and rotate the cylinder the rest of the way into battery. Observe how far it moves. It should move at least the width of the bolt head. If the bolt drops and the cylinder only moves a tiny bit before going into battery, the bolt is probably dropping to late. You will have to adjust the bolt leg that rides over the hammer cam.

Flint · May 28, 2009, 11:11:17 AM

Skinny Preacher. Pettifogger has good advice here. To add to it in regard to your posting:

1) I would not thin the bolt head unless it does not fit into the notch. If a bolt head is thinned, it must be thinned with a vertical face, do not angle the side as this will act as a cam surface and the cylinder can drive the bolt head back down. If you want the bolt to drop sooner, you do it at the other end of the bolt where it rides the hammer's cam.

2) You want the top surface of the bolt to match the inside (bottom) face of the cylinder's notch with the chamber and barrel aligned. This is in most cases about 10 degrees, as the cylinder's notch and the bolt are off center. If you change the angle so that either edge is the only edge in contact with the bottom of the notch, the cylinder can be manually rotated out of battery, in a camming action, or spun out of battery with the cocking action.

3) The hand does indeed provide some braking action, which is why Pettifogger recommends inspecting the hand spring for tension. The Jerry Kuhnhausen Manual on Colt Single Actions (which everyone should have on their shelf) claims that the majority of overtravel problems are caused by a weak or broken hand spring.

Installing a Ruger or Ruger type coil and plunger will provide a good hand spring that will neither break nor change tension over time and use. It can also be adjusted by changing the length of the spring or plunger. Whenever one of my leaf hand springs breaks, I modify the frame to accept the Ruger coil and plunger.

Too strong a bolt spring is more likely to cause premature wear on the hammer's cam, particularly on an Italian hammer which does not have a replaceable hardened cam.

RRio · May 28, 2009, 02:29:46 PM

Quote from: Rawhide Rio on May 27, 2009, 12:26:28 PM
Some unscrupulous person passed off a ruined cylinder to you.

My apologies to the seller, I was obviously wrong about that. I could not believe that it came from the manufactor like that, but apparently they do.

Quote from: Flint on May 27, 2009, 12:42:00 PM
The two way notch leade is the way R&D makes the cylinder, and I asked them about it when I bought mine some time back. It has to do with having 10 notches instead of 5, and being able to rotate to the live chamber from the safety notch between.

I would do without one if that is all you can get. It is hideous, and would have to have timing and bolt fit perfect, which is a tall order for some of the Italian C&B guns.

Skinny Preacher 66418 · May 28, 2009, 04:17:15 PM

It looks like Kirst konverters for the '60 do it to a lesser extent. Maybe due to the rebated cylinder...the bolt doesn't disengage soon enough, thus requiring the exit ramp for clearance.

I'll see what I can do tonight to remedy. Thanks for the ideas.

Major 2 · May 28, 2009, 04:57:38 PM

Beat me to it ..I was going to say Kirst used the same duel ramp design.

Several years ago I bought a like new but used R&D Made for Uberti...I want to drop it into my 30 year old Second Generation Colt 1860.
The OEM hand was a tad long for the R&D ( only tad though ) worked fine with the C&B Cyl.
A few strokes with a stone on the Hand, and it works with both...lock-up is perfect in fact it's even better with the R&D...
Course the Precussion Cyl. has been well used in all those years.

My point is when you get it right...I think you'll love it....

Fiddler Green · May 30, 2009, 12:31:31 PM

Quote from: Fiddler Green on May 27, 2009, 12:17:36 PM
Get yourself a new triger/cylinder lock spring and I'll bet it works fine.

Bruce

I still think this is your problem. I've got a C&B match next weekend so I"ll be stripping mine down to make sure everything is ready to go. If you want, I'll post pictures of the process.

Bruce

Skinny Preacher 66418 · June 01, 2009, 08:21:40 AM

Thanks again for the ideas. The gun is acting better now.

I checked the hand spring, looked good. Bent it back a bit, reinstalled...not any better. If that spring breaks, I may convert to a coil handspring later.

Measured the bolt width and bolt notches. The bolt was a bit tight, but did fit all. Bolt was protruding up high enough as well. Bolt/hand spring seems to have plenty of springiness. Also, the bolt is rising right at the beginning of the notch ramp and rides it into the notch.

Inspected the leading edge of the bolt and noticed a slight roundover on that edge. I polished the entire right side on a stone and you could still see the rounded edge. Next I clamped the bolt in a vise with only the actual bolt lug sticking up, and I carefully filed the side smooth. I didn't hardly take any metal off, but now I have a crisp leading edge of the bolt. I reinstalled and was happy with the results.

I'm getting 100% lockup cocking gunfighter/dualist style...which is what I intend to use it for.

Pettifogger · June 01, 2009, 06:54:44 PM

Quote from: Skinny Preacher 66418 on June 01, 2009, 08:21:40 AM

Inspected the leading edge of the bolt and noticed a slight roundover on that edge. I polished the entire right side on a stone and you could still see the rounded edge. Next I clamped the bolt in a vise with only the actual bolt lug sticking up, and I carefully filed the side smooth. I didn't hardly take any metal off, but now I have a crisp leading edge of the bolt. I reinstalled and was happy with the results.

If you filed it, you removed metal. This indicates the bolt was a little tight in the notch and not locking securely. By filing you removed a couple of thousands and now the bolt is dropping into the notch with no problem.

Skinny Preacher 66418 · June 05, 2009, 11:57:52 AM

Quote from: Pettifogger on June 01, 2009, 06:54:44 PM
If you filed it, you removed metal. This indicates the bolt was a little tight in the notch and not locking securely. By filing you removed a couple of thousands and now the bolt is dropping into the notch with no problem.

I assume you are the same Pettifogger that is writing the multi-part SASS Chronical articles on tuning up the Colt style percussion revolver. I'd like to say thanks and good job.

I drilled the frame using your instructions for the coil handspring and ordered the brownells part you mention (i got the stainless one). I'm waiting for the parts to come in, but using the blank end of the drill bit in the semi-assembled revolver it seems like it will work nicely.

If all goes well then my other hoglegs better hide from the wrath of my shopsmith drill press.

Dalton Masterson · July 14, 2009, 08:47:55 AM

Regarding the R&D cylinder fitting, just call R&D and get your pistol and cylinder fitted by them. Thats what I did, and it only cost me shipping.
Works great, fast, and so far, have had no problems!
DM

rifle · July 27, 2009, 10:30:50 AM

Mentioning overtravel of the cylinder and Jerry Kuhnhausen's book and statement about the majority of overtravel is caused by a weak hand.....can be misunderstood since there's two kinds of over travel.
The over-travel that occurs when a cylinder base pin has been polished to a high degree or the fit of the base pin is pretty loose in conjunction with a weak hand spring that lets the cylinders inertia from the hand giving it a push "free wheel ahead of the timing" and get ahead of the bolts operation is one type overtravel.
The other over-travel is when the bolt does snap up to meet the cylinders surface in plenty of time but....the wear of parts or ill fit or ill tuning make the mechanics improper and the bolt hits the stopping edge of the bolt but doesn't hold it.
I guess it could be described as the first type over-travel occurs before the bolt snaps up and the other type happend after the bolt snaps up. You know the first is "free-wheelin cylinder" and the second is bolt can't stop the cylinder even when the bolt is in time due to wear or ill fit.
I'd say from what is mentioned about the statement from the "book" that the over-travel the author is referring to is the "free-wheeling cylinder type" and not the second type where the bolt hits the cylinders notch but can't hold it to stop the cylinder because of an ill fit or wear or whatever with the cylinder notch, the bolt head, the frame window,the bolts screw fit in the bolts screw hole,the width of the bolt in relation to the frame and the trigger,the contact of the bolt leg on the frame and the hammer and the tension there, and other things. The hand spring tension won't remedy that since the hand spring tension putting pressure on the ratchets is a minimal help in stopping the rotation of the cylinder. There are two types of hands to consider also. The cap&baller hand and the later forked two prong hand type. Either one is shaped when proper to have a minimum of contact where the contact is made by the ends of the hands point or prong. The curve of the hands is what I'm referring to. Made to have minimum contact so the points or prongs aren't restricted in their function to get to the step of the ratchets at the rear of the cylinder.
The spring tension of the hand can help remedy the first type over-travel some. The primary help for that type over-travel is getting the bolt off the hammer cam sooner to keep pace with the free wheeling cylinder. You know since some people polish for a friction free(almost) fit to the parts.
Anyway, the book mentioned may be a guide to the Colt SAA which is of a later design than the cap&baller. I don't have the book so I don't know if it includes anything about the earlier than 1873 Colts single action revolvers and their functions. It is just that to give the books advise about the hand tension to any over-rotation problem isn't entirely proper since there are two types of over-travel. I don't know if the book makes a distinction to describe the two types. If it doesn't it should. It probably does in some way and the hand tension remedy may get understood. Youy know...good for the free wheelin but not real good for the crude mecnaical fit type over-rotation.
I'd say the problem with the gun at hand may be solved following the advise mentioned but with the distinction to put the fit of the bolt head to the cylinder notch and the angle to the top of the bolts head at the top of the remedy list. Naturally the timing of the bolt to insure it gets to the right place soon enough would be a prelude to that. I'd say the bolt would have to be a perfect fit to the cylinder notch with a good spring and some angle to it's head to help get the leading edge low in the notch before the bolt head is in alignment and in the notch. Like a Remingtons bolt head.
I'd say the screw in the bolts hole should probably be taken out and one made that is more tight in the bolt hole than the factory screw so the bolt can't cant on the screw and give an angle to the bolts head to act like a slanted ramp for the bolt to be pushed down into the frame by the cylinders weight and inertia. The frame window for the bolt would have to be a real snug fit to the bolt to help the bolt to not cant when the cylinder hits it.
I'd say the cylinder is ill designed with that extra ramp on the off side of the notch with the notch not deep enough to handle having the extra notch. Maybe the cylinder is giving enough meat left to the stopping side of the notch but it just can't function well in the cap&ballers the way the cap&ballers tolerances are loose in so many places.
Maybe that cylinder isn't made to take the abuse the "Cowboy Shooting" dishes out? Maybe the cylinder is for slower shooting? Maybe it would have to have the gun adjusted in several places to even function in that non-Cowboy shooting mode?
I'd say I don't understand the reasoning for the extra ramp on the stopping side of the cylinder notch. I'd have to see one of the cylinders to see the stopping sides "meat" of that edge of the notch. If there's enough meat there then the gun mentioned just needs Tuned up some for that cylinder to work well.
The guns can function with a minimumof meat to the stopping sie of the cylinder notches but.....they probably won't function very long having to put up with the altra fast shooting of "Cowboy Shooting".
Please excuse any typ errors.

Fox Creek Kid · July 27, 2009, 10:41:31 PM

Light springs can also exacerbate overtravel when cocked two handed "fast & furious" as there are centrifugal forces at play after some chambers are fired. Think of your washing machine when it stops due to a lop sided load.

rifle · July 28, 2009, 07:34:16 AM

Good point Fox Creek Kid. Light springs to slick up an action can make it non-functionable when used in "the fast mode".

Springs too light can exasberate both types of over-rotation. Make more deformation to the cylinder notch edges too. You ever read the J. Kuhnhausen book? I'd like to see it. I don't know ifin it would help me though. I'm too old to learn new tricks. NOT!

ha ha ha