Nutralizing Vinegaroon??

[Freedom]

Hi guys I read through the FAQ and I still have a few?? about nutralizing the vinegaroon.

I have made some and it turns my W&C russet leather a dark black just by wiping it on...do some guys actually dip/soak leather in the solution??

For nutralizing.... do you dip into the Baking soda solution or can it just be wiped on too??

Can you go too far with the soda and Alkali burn your leather??

I am a little afraid of the stuff....lack of experience I know... But I have had mixed results ... I dipped a sample into the vingaroon and it tuned black, but it got so soft and floppy that it stayed like a 12oz. piece of seude, even a week after drying and no nutralizing or oil of any kind?....

I used another piece of scrap leather as a matt to antique some brass buckles on with vinegar, This piece of leather dried so hard that it broke and cracked like a 12oz. potato chip???
I would sure like some more advice from those that have experience and tips
Thanks
Wes

[Ace Lungger]

Wes,
I don't know your formula for your vinegroon, so it is going to be hard for me to be of any help! I guess a lot of people use steel wool, and burn the oil out of it! I use pure metal shaving off of brake rotors, and I use one big spoon full and a 2 litre bottle of cider vinager. I shake it good morning and night for 3 days! And never ever had any problem like you are having! I dunk it and use a clean rag, rubbing it in the solution and after all the leather has turn color, i pull it out to dry. After it has dryed I treat it, and finish my project! I have never had any problems, and have used it on 20-30 peices. I would treat it in a day or 2 after it has dryed, and i wouldn't leve it in the vinegroon over 5 mins.
Hope this helps!
ACE

[Marshal Will Wingam]

After dunking the leather in Vinegaroon, I generally dip the leather in baking soda solution until the worst of the bubbling stops. I use maybe a 1/4 cup of baking soda to a quart of water. As soon as it dries I condition the leather. If I've wiped the vinegaroon on, then a shorter dunking with BS solution (my wife says I'm full of this) works. I have also wiped the BS solution on if the leather didn't take a whole lot of vinegaroon.

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

Howdy Freedom

      I followed the the information in the Fac/ How to section here in the forum, and didn't have this problem, but I did experiment using different ways of doing it , if your leather got that brittle, you most likely used too strong a solution of BC, ( My wife says the same thing Will ) and you didn't use Lexoil conditioner on the leather after it dried, BS will turn your leather darker also, you can get nice browns my just giving your leather a BS bath, the BS will neutralize the vinegar in the vinegaroon, and after a while the smell of vinegar will go away. After you have dyed your leather, ( I submerge it until the color comes up the way I want it ) give it a BS bath 1/4 cup BS to a quart of water, make enough so you can dip everything down in it swish it around a little bit, then give the leather a fresh water bath to wash the BS and any residue off, and then take it out and let it drip for a little bit to get the excess water out, then do your wet molding of you gun, or if it is a belt straighten it out the way you want it, if you don't have a table long enough, you can use a board, wrapped in brown paper, the kind you get from Lowes, let your pieces dry for 24 hours, or until thoroughly dry, then condition with Lexoil, let it dry about an hour, then finish the way you want oil/bag kote/tan-kote/etc.

                                             tEN wOLVES 

[Ace Lungger]

Although, I have never had a problem, maybe I should start nutralozing my vinegaroon leather! I have a pair of holster that I am making a double shoulder holster for my 51 Marshalls, and then got side tracked, putting toghter a couple postols and build a couple rifles and learning to carve, so these have been dyed for 4 month or more, with no oil or anything, because I didn't know how I was going to finish them because they would be rubbing on my shirt when I wore them! The holsters look just like the day they dryed, and of course the vinager smell is long gone!
Maybe I have just been lucky!!
Later
ACE

[Freedom]

Thanks guys for the info.... I think there has to be some nutralizing taking place as the acid boils and eats away the iron.

The statement I made about the leather becoming brittle and breaking(not cracking) when folded was pure vinegar. The leather was just scrap that I put on the floor to catch the extra vinegar from a batch of brass buckles I antiqued with it.

I am going to get some PH strips and see what the difference between vinegar and vinegaroon are. I will report this info if you guys are interested.

Just to try it as a test...this morning I took about a 1/4 cup of vinegaroon and added about a teaspoon of BS,  she boiled and foamed as expected. As the reaction began to slow down I filtered the Vingaroon into another bottle(what hadn't turned to foam)

I then tried it on some scrap skirting....DARK BLACK!!... seemed to work just as well even after having it's acidity almost totally nutralized. I thought that it might be the acids that cause the coloration but apparently not.

I dipped (not soaked) a piece of leather in it and stuck the leather into the damper spring of my wood stove(yeah it is still dropping snow in MT) the stove pipe therm. said 380 degrees. after about 3 hours I took the dryed leather out and bent it double and it just folded up. NO cracking. It  actually remained more supple than it does when I use Fiebings Black(alchohol)

I sure like the color it gives....My fiebings gives an almost blue tint and I always have to mix it with dark brown just to keep it from looking like plastic.

[Ace Lungger]

Howdy Freedom,
I am glad you are doing these tests! I am interested in you results! Keep us up to date!
Later ACE

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

Howdy All

       There is one thing I left out on my last post, which I have since edited in , and that's after you give your leather the BS bath, you need to wash everything off with fresh water, then you can continue with the process, sorry about that, I must of had a Senorita Moment, LOL 


                                                  tEN wOLVES 

[Freedom]

Howdy All

       There is one thing I left out on my last post, which I have since edited in , and that's after you give your leather the BS bath, you need to wash everything off with fresh water, then you can continue with the process, sorry about that, I must of had a Senorita Moment, LOL 


                                                  tEN wOLVES 

OK ....so does this mean that you can go too far past a  neutral PH to an alkali and burn/damage harden  your leather this way??

What would be the optimum PH # for leather??? acidic? or neutrall or alkali?.... Willl salt/sodium crystals form later if not washed?

Lot of questions I know but some of these answered will save me/us all a lot of experimenting and leather products from the trash.

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

 Howdy Freedom

       I'm not a chemist, but I've done a lot experiments on my leather before I ever used it on a good piece, the BS will burn the leather if left on too long or used TOO STRONG, try it for yourself, try everything you want to do on scrap leather first, take a piece of leather and try different strengths of BS/water, you will see the leather turn darker brown right before your eyes, I've used BS to give me a little darker shade of natural walnut, but not so long as to do damage. What ever you do or what natural dye you use, you need to put the good oils back in, Chuck Burrows recommends Lexoil, and I agree with him, it does a great job of putting life back into the leather, and after that you can finish the leather the way you choose, but just remember to wash it all off after the BS bath, with FRESH WATER, then let dry, and do the conditioning. Also, it's better to let your leather air dry, but not next to a heat source, you can do damage to your leather, in a since your BBQ the hide, and causing the leather to bleed more of its natural oils,( IMHO ) 
NOTE-BS is Baking Soda


                                                           Regards

                                                                  tEN wOLVES 

[Wild Billy Potts]

I am by no means an expert in dying leather, but I have experimented with my vinegaroon. Mine is made from a full wad of 0000 steel wool and a full 20oz sized bottle of cider vinegar. The solution is now very dark amber in color and stains my maple a nice dark brown which rubs back very well to espose the striping. Before I used it the first time I filtered it through a shop rag and kept the paste like sludge in a seperate container. I first applied the liquid to the leather it turns it a dark grayish color. which rubbed back to a very slightly lighter gray. I then applied the paste like sludge and the leather had the most period correct looking bluish black color I've ever been able to replicate. It looks lots better than any modern black dye. Perfect for 19th century military leathers. From discussions on a very fine Longrifle building forum, vinegaroon does not need nutralizing as the acid is very mild and completely evaporates at least in wood anyway.

[ChuckBurrows]

1) If you're getting that much reaction between the vinegaroon and the BS then you're not adding enough iron to "kill"
the acid - if it dissolves all the iron, add more until it stops dissolving it. Heating the mix to a low boil and then letting cool speeds the process, but even then it may take a week or more to completely dissolve the iron.
2) Yes you can get alkali burn from the BS and acid burn from the straight vinegar if either are overapplied or applied too long - as noted wash with clear water and then while damp apply your favorite conditioner i.e Lexol, Skidmores, etc.
3) While some folks do say there is no need to neutralize (I'm still not fully convinced that's true with leather):
    A. It doesn't hurt when done properly
    B. It definitely helps neutralize any vinegar odor and in my experience if there is vinegar odor there is active acid
    C. It helps to darken the leather - as noted just BS will darken the leather but will burn it - you can reverse this somewhat with pure vinegar, followed by a wash of clear water and the proper conditioner
4) If you're not getting a good dark black without using the sludge than:
    A. There's not enough iron in the mix. It's the reaction of the iron and the tannins that creates the color change - leave leather soak in just plain water with a chunk of iron and the same reaction happens - only it usually takes longer since the iron does not go into solution as well with just water.
    B. Not enough tannin in the leather - add more by making a STRONG brew of black tea, soak the leather in that first and then add the vinegar black
    C. Use the BS and water mix as above

Vegtable/Bark Leather is naturally what acidic - IIRC 4-4.5 on the PH scale is considered normal dependent on the tannage - for those interested in the actual manufacturing methods used for making leather see here http://www.hewit.com/sd1-leat.htm

[Freedom]

Thanks Mr. Burrows

I made my vinegaroon about 2 weeks ago. I just used plain vinegar. I looked around the old out buildings on our ranch. In an old calving barn of my Grandad's (calender on the wall is on page "May 1972" ) found a can of old nails/staples,needles, dirt and?  Dumped the whole works, dirt and all,  in the vinegar. Today I used a milk filter and filtered off the rust colored liquid. It smells more like rust or old steel than vinegar.

I just wiped a little on some scrap skirting leather and it turned coal black... It didn't seem to negatively affect the leather as much as most alcohol based comercial dyes do. Looks like I may have a winner!!

Thanks everyone for all the information...your combined experience will sure shorten the learning curve.