Question to the hat experts..

[Coyote Hunter]

I am a western reenactor, amoung other things, and not a CAS shooter (Just don't have the time!). But I have a question about hats.

Are most of us still falling for "Hollywood" style hats that never exsisted? I love the Apaloosa, Tombstone and Open Range movies that claim they are historic in clothing from doing much research, but I can't seem to find any old pictures of the hats they are wearing. I know Costner's hat can be seen in turn of the century Montana and Wyoming, but Duvall's "gus" style he likes to wear in different movies I never see. I never see Kilmer's "Doc" hat nor Johnny Ringo's. The 'Boss of the Plains" hat seems most common or just slouch hats. Everyone else seems to be wearing derby's some short brim type hat in town.

I'm looking for some help here 

CH

[Kentuckian]

I've wondered the same thing. If people go for the "movie" look in clothing and hats instead of a researched original look as seen in period images.

I've always bought my hats from reputable dealers that RESEARCH and usually make hats from existing originals. They cost more, but the quality and authenticity is never a question. For my period I have always dealt with Tim Bender and Tim Allen and have never worried about them being right. 

[Fox Creek Kid]

NEWSFLASH!!! 99% of the people in CAS pick a hat based on a Hollywood movie. 

[Delmonico]

NEWSFLASH!!! 99% of the people in CAS pick a hat based on a Hollywood movie. 

However one with a lot of careful searching, can find examples of most if not all these shapes in the 19th.  Although the majority of working cowboys bought an open flat and let it take what ever shape work and handling let it take on.

Factory shaped hats were not common till the late 1890's so hats that were shaped were done to the style and taste of the owner.

One thing that has always amused me is that the term "Gus" hat is a product of the movies and is used by those who should know better.  The proper term is pinched slope although some of us older folks who have not just started wearing hats because we decided to shoot CAS/WAS will remember when it was called a Tom Horn, from another movie.

Although these two don't look "exactly" like the Duval hat, none of the so called "Gus" hats I've ever seen but a custom copy do.

From a group of men in the 1880's in the cental region of Nebraska, don't have my notes handy:



And Pawnee Bill from the 1870's:



Will take me a couple of days to sort things out, but I have quit a few interesting examples of hats.

But like I said, what is the most important is who do you want to portray?

[Delmonico]

Another interesting one, dated 1886 in West Union in Custer County Nebraska, a now defuct town, note the guy on the left, despite what many say about "modern shaped" hats, here's a guy who's hat would fit right in at a Brooks and Dunn concert.



This shape does show up now and then in 19th century pictures.

[Coyote Hunter]

Thanks Delmonico, that one pic of the "Brooks and Dunn" hat, cattleman crease looking one, will be a big help for one of our guys. People keep telling him it's not period and he can't afford to buy another right now. I'll show him the pic.

[Delmonico]

Thanks Delmonico, that one pic of the "Brooks and Dunn" hat, cattleman crease looking one, will be a big help for one of our guys. People keep telling him it's not period and he can't afford to buy another right now. I'll show him the pic.

I'll never say they were the most common type or even fairly common, but as for a  purpose shaped hat I ain't found one yet that was really the predominat style anyway.

BTW if your friend wants to reshape the one he has, give me a hollor, it ain't hard and I could walk him through it.

[Will Ketchum]

I have noticed as far as working cowboys are concerned our hats as well as our clothes are too clean and well pressed

If you look at the pictures most of the hats are mis-shapen and the cloths are rumpled.  Even town folks whose hats might be nicely shaped in a Homburg or fedora style are wearing suits that are disheveled.  We are too use to perma press and smooth, well pressed suits and don't feel comfortable if we appear too authentic

[Delmonico]

I have noticed as far as working cowboys are concerned our hats as well as our clothes are too clean and well pressed

If you look at the pictures most of the hats are mis-shapen and the cloths are rumpled.  Even town folks whose hats might be nicely shaped in a Homburg or fedora style are wearing suits that are disheveled.  We are too use to perma press and smooth, well pressed suits and don't feel comfortable if we appear too authentic

Agree for most will, but when I do Living History everything I wear is what no longer passes the muster at work amd is patched right down to the boots with the holes in the soles.  I do keep a good thick footbed in them and in good repar, hot coals you see.

One thing though, just a thought, a shooting event in the time period would be considered a social event and often folks di wear their best to shooting events.

[Texas Lawdog]

Del, I was hoping that you would read that post about the hats. I knew you could answer the guy's question.

[Kentuckian]

Factory shaped hats were not common till the late 1890's so hats that were shaped were done to the style and taste of the owner.

Hats were actually shaped by the various makers. Shapeless blanks weren't passed off as finished hats (that is, hats with pig or goat skin sweat bands, liners, crown ribbon, and either edge ribbon or edge sewing). The owner may add a personal touch such as a brim turned up, etc. They were also finshed (even shellacked) to be able to withstand wear and weather and not go floppy like the ones I see most people wear. You rarely see anyone wearing a hat that looks like a rag tied to their head.  Another thing I see modern people do to their hats that I don't see a lot of true evidence for is, is turning their brim down around the whole hat.

[Delmonico]

There is a big differance between a shapeless blank and what is known as an open crown hat.  An open crown hat is a finished hat, a "shapeless blank" looks line this and hans no hat band, sewatband or liner.



This is the same hat finished up for a pard:

Not fancy but I lack a lot of the tools of a true custom hatter. 

Hats for the most part from large companies like Stetson were sold as open flats, flat crown or sugar loaf crowns.  The blanks were sold to the smaller custon hatters.  Mass produced companies after the Civil War did some custom work for clients, but the majority of their work was open crown.  Many of these hats were never shaped any further by their owners except what the natural hanldling and weather would do.  The mass produced hats all shaped alike do not seem to have shown up till the late 1880's.

The person who was a gentleman of means as I'm guessing your persona is, had nice finished and stiffened hats.  But I beg to differ, a lot of the working cowboys, settlers and such once they were away from town and the new had worn off the duds, had hats that tended to be dirty and had lost their stiffening.  With an hour or two's work I could show you dozens if not hundreds of examples of such hats.

[Kentuckian]

The person who was a gentleman of means as I'm guessing your persona is, had nice finished and stiffened hats.  But I beg to differ, a lot of the working cowboys, settlers and such once they were away from town and the new had worn off the duds, had hats that tended to be dirty and had lost their stiffening.  With an hour or two's work I could show you dozens if not hundreds of examples of such hats.

Companies were mass producing hats such as the Army Issue "Hardee Hat" all looking alike with shellacking, hat ribbons, sewn edges, sweat bands. Also, back to the 1856 Arabia wreck, boxes of hats that all looked alike and were mass produced.

http://www.benderhats.com/hats1.html
As you can see from Tim Bender (just one person I've purchased hats from) there are quite a variety of crown styles. These are original styles from the 1850s-60s era, so you know that there were alot more styles in the later years.

I have a few Impressions. One is a farm laborer. I'm not talking pretend either. Building split rail fences, log structures, farming, working with horses, oxen...etc. at historic sites for the past 22 years in all kinds of weather. None of my hats have ever lost their shape because they are properly made and finished. They don't start off as "Top of the line hats of the period" to begin with, just properly made to period techniques (minus the Mercury). 

The blank that you have pictured... you would be surprised how people I've seen wear such a thing as a hat. (Even though there is a picture of a CW soldier wearing such a thing.)

I'm not trying to argue with you, it's just that from the research I've done (even though a little earlier time period), I don't think we give the people of the 1800s enough credit for inventions, smarts, and the ability to take care of items of worth (such as hats). For example, if you can ever find a copy of the 1865 Russell & Erwin Hardware catalogue, I think you will be surprised of items that existed and were used at the time.

[Delmonico]

Oh I lnow you arne't, but I realized we are talking about two slightly different things.  I'm talking about the creases that are now often given different names such as cattleman creases, Montana peak and such as that.

[Rube Burrows]

I def dont mean to hijack the thread but since the topic is on hats I thought I would ask here.

I am looking for a hat similar to the one Ike Clanton wears in Tombstone. Something with the brim flipped up but cant find what im looking for. Is there a hat that I can buy and do the front like I want it?

This is what im going for.





if anyone who knows wants to pm so the thread dont get hijacked feel free too.
Thanks.

[Delmonico]

Since we are talking about hats, i think it fits right in.  The simple answer is got a decent fur blend, (not wool) hat and shape it that way with steam. 

Any Western Store with a hat dept should have someone who works on hats if you don't want to try it your self.  I could do it in a few minutes if you were in town. 

[Rube Burrows]

Since we are talking about hats, i think it fits right in.  The simple answer is got a decent fur blend, (not wool) hat and shape it that way with steam. 

Any Western Store with a hat dept should have someone who works on hats if you don't want to try it your self.  I could do it in a few minutes if you were in town. 

I will check into that. Im most certain that im not near you......dont seem many people on here are anywhere close to me. 

Im just now getting all my stuff together to start shooting and I cant find a good hat. Not many stores down here. only modern western type stores. 

[Delmonico]

A modern shaped hat will work, just need to steam it out and reshape it.  Just make sure it's not a wool hat, I do quality checks on hats by rubbing it on my cheek.  The softer the hat, the better the quality and I can tell if it's wool or a wool blend that way.  Don't be afraid to ask what it's made of.  Don't expect an exact on the lower end, but they should know if it's a wool, wool blend or fur blend. 

On a full custom hat I have to know what it is made out of, I prefer Rand Hats in Billings, but there are other good ones, have heard nothing but good about Tim Bender.  But when looking at custom, ask around for happy customers, that is happy customers that know hats.  I've seen "happy customers" that have go shafted on quality and price, seen one that was over $800 and i could have made the same basic hat of the same quality from a $100 Podeo King open flat.

[Wild Billy Potts]

The pinched crowned hats are often seen worn by Union soldiers in the later Civil War period, often times modified issue hats. I will admit that Del's picture above is the first I've seen of an era hat with the brims turned up like a modern hat, but I'm sure things like that could happen. I will agree that most brim shapes of the ear came as a result of usage, like the way my old Hardee hat had a slight turn up on the right front from me taking it off and on in that area.

Joey, I've seen many original pictures of hats similarly shaped like Ike Clantons in Tombstone, It is basically the Boss of the Plains style marketed by Stetson for years, and known by other less remembered names before Stetson.

[Delmonico]

The Boss of the Plains had a 4 inch crown, that one looks like a 6 inch.