Scout Impressions

[edward austin cable]

Could everyone that has pictures of themselves in Calvary Scout impressions load them to this thread? Im workin on mine, and wanted to see some ideas of what other people are using for their impressions. thanks

[RattlesnakeJack]

Not quite a U.S. Cavalry scout impression (which I assume is what you are after) but close - my very first (and still primary) persona is based on a real-life fellow who was  one of three Scouts on the rolls of the Rocky Mountain Rangers, a Provisional Militia mounted unit raised for service during Canada's North West Rebellion in 1885.  (The unit was raised around Fort Macleod  and consisted primarily of ranchers, cowboys and other frontiersmen ...)

Anyway, here is one photo of me in my impression .....

[Curley Cole]

Howdy

I assumed this secondary personna for a couple of reasons,

1. Because I wanted to be a scout to my soldier pards  Old Top and Cole Harbour
2. Because I wanted an excuse to get RedDog to make me my double crossdraw rig
3. I just had this look in the back of my head, and after almost a year of putting it to gether here I am.

The hat came from Knudsens Golden Gate, Is a Duke Rio Bravo with the USS scout pin on the front. I wear around my neck a hairpipe choker that I made myself, and vary from a deerskin medicine bag to a neck knife with bone handle and obsidian blade, and a deerskin sheath. I wear a ragged undershirt under the fringe shirt. My gunrig is a double crossdraw with antiqued 1875 7 1/2 Remingtons. belt is a variation of the fair weather christian belt with an officers buckle and 8" bowie with antler handle and matching sheath, and a bullet pouch to hold my little digital camera. I also have a fringe coat that I got on sale and replaced the buttons with some polished antler buttons I got of the wire.

So, go foward and let us see your results as you go along...

good shootin
Curley

[Tame Bill]

[edward austin cable]

Thanks so much for the quick and detailed responses. Rattlesnake can you tell me alittle bit more about these Rocky Mountain Rangers or where I can find some information on them? They sound super interesting!

[1961MJS]

 Hi

Dr. Fronkensteen raising the dead.   

I have a few questions about the GAF Scout class.  I'll probably shoot it for a few years because I ordered a lever action to go with my SAA.  Scout for the purposes of shooting competition being defined as "6-Scout- Lever action, pistol calibers, single action revolvers."  This combination would also allow me to shoot in NCOWS "Working Cowboy Class with the same two firearms.

The Uniform section states the following with respect to the Scouts:

    Scouts. GAF members who prefer not to wear a uniform are permitted to wear appropriate civilian attire when participating in GAF events or representing the GAF.
        Scouts should wear suits or "showman" attire when attending occasions calling for a dress uniform. Showman attire is defined as the fancy outfits worn in Wild West shows.
        Scouts should wear appropriate frontier attire as would have been worn in the field on campaign during shooting events. Scouts should attempt to wear clothing that will readily identify them as scouts and not as cowboys, townsmen, lawmen, etc.

I just don't see myself in full showman attire.  I might get either a Corporal or low ranking officer coat for dress occasions.

What would be the difference between Scout field attire and Cowboy field attire?  No cowboy cuffs?  no rope?  Other differences?   I understand that I'm not portraying Wyatt Earp, the gambler, or the local banker, but cowboys and scouts lived similarly but performing different jobs.  I have a later Indian War / Spam Am War blue shirt and a white Civil war (CD Jarnigan) shirt to wear with a light tan canvas vest and pants.  I think I have Scout covered for summer, but I don't know about Winter.  I've been looking up various Army Scouts, cowboys, outlaws, and Lawmen and haven't found a GOOD picture of a coat that I think a regular cowboy / army scout would really wear in the field.  Most of the pictures are from the chest up or posed portraits wearing a fitted sack coat.  Some are also posed wearing a Frock coat.  Texas Ranger photos seem to only include vests.  I wouldn't wear a tight sack coat scouting or robbing trains.  If I can find references I'd like to wear a longer, much looser double breasted sack coat with a couple of pockets.  From what I found Yellowstone Kelly started out with a Navy Blue hooded Capote with sash and 1860's era Civilian pants and boots  Al Sieber wore civilian clothing, but not buckskins according to his biography.

This picture of Billy Dixon looks reasonable even though it's not double breasted:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Billydixon.jpg

The picture of a Confederate Officer's double Breasted Sack Coat is what I think would be a more wearable style.  I wouldn't need the insignia and they have both tan wool, brown wool and a few brown jean colors. They are also commonly made with two waist pockets.


Would Army Scouts have worn partial military clothing?  Many would have been Civil War Veterans and could have taken their uniforms home with them.

Thanks

Mike

[St. George]

St. George's Notes XXI - Indian Scout Uniforms...
« on: August 02, 2005, 12:42:43 PM »     

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Every so often - someone wants to do an Impression of  a Scout - more often, an Indian Scout or someone associated with them.

That way - they get to use all sorts of bits and pieces that they figure a scout would wear.

There was a difference, though.

Early on - such fanciful dress would've been a common sight, since those folks would not've been subject to a uniform - but after 1866 - things changed, because prior to that time - Indians employed as scouts and guides were not actually soldiers but were considered employees.

The history of Indians employed by the Army is a long one - Indians having aided the Army in the Revolution, the War of 1812, and on both sides of the Civil War - with at least one becoming a General.

In 1891 - the War Department manned some Cavalry Troops and Infantry Companies with Indians - but these men served as regular troops - wearing the standard uniform - and 'not' as Indian Scouts.

On 28 July 1866 - the Congress authorized the Army to have a Corps of Indian Scouts.
There was an  'actual' uniform that came about in at that time - and they wore cast-off and obsolete uniforms.

In 1890 - special uniforms were prescribed - with that uniform being proposed by First Lieutenant Edward Casey - Commander of the Indian Scouts Troop at Fort Keough, Montana, who wrote the Secretary of War with his suggestions.

War Department Circular - dated 15 August 1890 - authorized a distinct uniform virtually unchanged from that of the one suggested by the Lieutenant.

It included a Black felt fatigue hat with a 3 1/2" brim and a 3 1/2" crown, A White hat cord with a Red strand intermixed decorated the hat, along with a special hat ornament.
The standard Dark Blue shirt was modified to have a deeper collar "to hold a neck-handkerchief".
The overcoat was unusual insofar as it was designed to fit over 'all' accouterments.
It came within 10" of the ground, featured a long rear slit to allow for more comfortable seating on the saddle and it at also had a pointed hood.
A surviving example is in the Collection of Fort Sill's Museum.

The Scout Dress uniform was generally similar to the standard uniform with chevrons, trouser stripes  and other trim of White with Red trim.

When that uniform changed in 1902 - the White with Red trim remained.

From 1890 until early in the twentieth century - Regulations called for Indian Scouts to wear Silver-colored crossed arrows on the Dress Blue uniform's Brass helmet plate.
The Quartermaster Depot initially stocked this insignia, but by 1900 all initial purchases were exhausted.

Lieutenant Casey recommended:  "Two arrows, crossed, to be made of nickel or of some white metal, three inches in height, the letters USS in the intersection' as the ornament for the special Black hat.

The Office of the Quartermaster General Specifications Number 318, dated March 1892 - depicts this insignia.
The Philadelphia Quartermaster Depot issued several hundred of these insignia and in November of 1893 - placed a second order for 323 additional devices - as the cost of .15 each.

As an aside - in the 1960's - a partial original insignia was used to make a die and restrike copies were made of this unique insignia.

No complete original hat devices are known - though the Philadelphia Depot had 275 in stock in March of 1901.

Prescribed in 1902 - the block letters USS were worn on both the collar and the hat - until they were withdrawn in 1907 when the Army removed all Campaign hat insignia.

In 1902 - the Bronze letters were also worn on the collars of service coats until the Army changed to a collar disk in 1910.

Also in 1902 - the Army decided not to issue the Indian Scouts a new dress uniform - issuing Service uniforms only.
Specifications of 1915 call for Gilt letters of the same design and style of the older Bronze letters.
No evidence has been given to suggest that they were produced, as there was no Dress uniform requiring their issue.

In March 1921 - the Indian Scouts became a part of the Detached Enlisted Man's List - and were authorized a collar disk featuring the crossed arrows - unlike that of the regularly-issued disk for that element - the Great Seal.
Few would actually wear this insignia, as by that time there were only 23  men eligible.

With the adoption of the crossed arrow disk - the USS disk disappeared completely.

In the '20's and '30's - Indian Scouts served as a labor force - assisting carpenters, plumbers and others.
They wore whatever insignia was available as they faded into the mists of history - though one Apache Scout Detachment continued to perform military duties (a wide-ranging description, to be sure) until disbanded in 1947.

In speaking of reference books - a very good reference on Indian Scouts is:

"The Indian as a Soldier at Fort Custer, Montana" - by Upton.

It goes into much of the material surrounding those soldiers and is well-written and well-researched.

No idea where a copy may be found.

The Indian Scouts pictured are in the standard Army dress, though - as required.

Another good book for your references is:

"To Live and Die in the West - The American Indian Wars" - by Hook and Pelger, and available through Osprey.

Yet another is:

'Wolves for the Blue Soldiers' - Dunlay

And:

'Scouting for the U.S. Army, 1876 - 1879, the Diary of Fred M. Hans' - reprinted from the South Dakota Historical Collections, in 1981

If you want a more 'colorful' look and yet a 'realistic' one - Frederick Remington's artwork is pretty accurate and has the added feature of some color.

What I'm referencing here - is the 'standard' uniform as laid down in Regulations and seen at the Fort or in Garrison.

'On Campaign' - as often noted - there was sometimes a wider variety of clothing worn.
Varieties of that are seen in Remington's work - as well as in pictures taken in the field.

The Indian Scouts were led by white Officers - detailed from their parent Branch.
That Branch was most likely Cavalry and they were to return to it upon completion of their assignment as Commanders of those detachments.

They would've worn the Crossed Sabers of that Arm.

Non-Commissioned Officers were drawn from the ranks of the Indians - as were those in Regular units.

The only photo of an Indian Scout - a Crow from Troop L, 1st Cavalry - wearing any sort of hat ornament, by the way - is one of an NCO wearing a pair of the M1872 Crossed Sabers.

Take that for what you will...

Unfortunately, as far as historical accuracy is concerned - Hollywood muddied the waters a long time ago through 'artistic license', and thus was born the "John Ford Reference Library" - a wholly-ficticious, yet dangerous place to draw an accurate picture of the Frontier Army.

The above covers Indian Scouts.

White scouts would wear the commonly available civilian clothing, and not articles of uniform, since association with the Army wasn't something to be overly proud of, as the Frontier Army was looked at as if it were a parasite on the public treasury - despite the often dangerous duty, and even commissioned Officers were viewed askance.

Some articles of equipment would be available - sold, as mentioned earlier, by deserters.

The Quartermaster contract wagoner/freighter - of which there were many - were sometimes supplied with obsolete weapons and ammunition as may be available on Post - but it was more a case of outfitting the 'wagon' than the man - like supplying a spare wheel.

Good Luck, and Happy Researching...

Scouts Out!

[St. George]

Re: cavalry Scouts- Info Needed
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2007, 10:17:00 am »     

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I added this one to the list:

'Scouting for the U.S. Army, 1876 - 1879, the Diary of Fred M. Hans' - reprinted from the South Dakota Historical Collections, in 1981

Some photos - covers a short time span, and complete with all spelling errors and a bit of bombast as was typical of the time.

Still - an interesting tale and well worth locating a copy for reference into how they did their day-to-day business on the Frontier, the things that they saw, and the people that they met.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[1961MJS]

St. George's Notes XXI - Indian Scout Uniforms...
« on: August 02, 2005, 12:42:43 PM »     

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...

In speaking of reference books - a very good reference on Indian Scouts is:

"The Indian as a Soldier at Fort Custer, Montana" - by Upton.

It goes into much of the material surrounding those soldiers and is well-written and well-researched.

No idea where a copy may be found.

The Indian Scouts pictured are in the standard Army dress, though - as required.

Another good book for your references is:

"To Live and Die in the West - The American Indian Wars" - by Hook and Pelger, and available through Osprey.

Yet another is:

'Wolves for the Blue Soldiers' - Dunlay  (This one is in the Local Library)

And:

'Scouting for the U.S. Army, 1876 - 1879, the Diary of Fred M. Hans' - reprinted from the South Dakota Historical Collections, in 1981

If you want a more 'colorful' look and yet a 'realistic' one - Frederick Remington's artwork is pretty accurate and has the added feature of some color.

What I'm referencing here - is the 'standard' uniform as laid down in Regulations and seen at the Fort or in Garrison.

'On Campaign' - as often noted - there was sometimes a wider variety of clothing worn.
Varieties of that are seen in Remington's work - as well as in pictures taken in the field.

The Indian Scouts were led by white Officers - detailed from their parent Branch.
That Branch was most likely Cavalry and they were to return to it upon completion of their assignment as Commanders of those detachments.

They would've worn the Crossed Sabers of that Arm.

Non-Commissioned Officers were drawn from the ranks of the Indians - as were those in Regular units.

The only photo of an Indian Scout - a Crow from Troop L, 1st Cavalry - wearing any sort of hat ornament, by the way - is one of an NCO wearing a pair of the M1872 Crossed Sabers.

Take that for what you will...

Unfortunately, as far as historical accuracy is concerned - Hollywood muddied the waters a long time ago through 'artistic license', and thus was born the "John Ford Reference Library" - a wholly-ficticious, yet dangerous place to draw an accurate picture of the Frontier Army.

The above covers Indian Scouts.

White scouts would wear the commonly available civilian clothing, and not articles of uniform, since association with the Army wasn't something to be overly proud of, as the Frontier Army was looked at as if it were a parasite on the public treasury - despite the often dangerous duty, and even commissioned Officers were viewed askance.

Some articles of equipment would be available - sold, as mentioned earlier, by deserters.

The Quartermaster contract wagoner/freighter - of which there were many - were sometimes supplied with obsolete weapons and ammunition as may be available on Post - but it was more a case of outfitting the 'wagon' than the man - like supplying a spare wheel.

Good Luck, and Happy Researching...

Scouts Out!

Thanks for the references.  I did find one of them.  My problem is finding a decent coat.  I doubt that a white Army Scout would wear a frock coat in the brush.  The civilian sack coats I've seen pictures of are too tight to be useful on either a cattle drive, on campaign,or running from the law.  I've gotten some good data on Yellowstone Kelly, but not at much on Al Sieber.

Thanks again

[Bow View Haymaker]

"Scout" is what originally allowed me to take part in GAF.  For GAF purposes and musters you may shoot in the Scout class but where full uniform or you may shoot in any milspec class but where civilian clothing.  The two are not mutually exclusive.  but As of now, if you want to be considered for champion, you must place in milspec shooting class and a uniform class.  the competition for these is pretty fierce.  For GAF purposes, one can dress in almost anyway you may want within the time period.  the "Scout" clothing as I understand is anything that might be worn by a civilian employee of the military. but you might be an officers brother visiting from the east in all your city finery, or you might be part of an immigrant wagon train that is visiting the fort. the story is the fun part.  
My first couple  musters  I was just a farmer who was cutting hay for the army. I wore the same things I  wore to local NCOWS and SASS matches and shot my lever action rifle.  I have since added more military pieces to my gear such as the dark blue shirts blue or tan pants, taller black boots, a civil war era cartridge box, a flap holster,and just last summer a trapdoor rifle.  I acquired pieces a bit at a time I guess as someone would who traveled around the military for a while.  I am still a long way from "regulation" but I don't stand out too much any more.  
Next on my wish list is the Actual GAF insignia for my hat and maybe collar tabs.  and a mills best for all that .45-70 ammo.
Still a work in progress for a simple farmboy from NE Nebraska Territory.


the first pic is from the 2008 Grand muster I think and the last from the 2012 Dept of Mo muster.

[1961MJS]

Hi

Thanks Bow View.  I'd forgotten about the rules on Iron Trooper.  I don't REALLY want a Trapdoor, but since the list includes Sharps 1874 I might have to look for one of those in a few years.  Shiloh Sharps lists a dozen or so rifles, each with a multitude of variations.  I understand that early Indian War Cavalry shot converted 1863 Sharps rifles in 50/70, would an 1874 in 50/70 do? 

Would a Sharps Cavalry Rifle in 45/70 with a 26 or 28 inch barrel work?

Later

[pony express]

An 1874 Sharps is listed here:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,17271.0.html

I'm not sure who used them as a military issue, but they are on the list. Drydock is our chief ordanance officer, I'm sure he can tell you more.

They would also be appropriate in Buffalo Scout class.

[Drydock]

the 1869/74 Sharps might certianly have been used by most any civilian scout,  and some were adopted by state militia units.  HOWSUMEVER!  Cartridge coversions of 1863 carbines in .50-70 Goverment were some of the most issued arms among regulars of the post civil war era, until replaced by the M1873 carbines in the mid 1870s. 

For our purposes, any military Sharps pattern carbine or rifle is considered an acceptable Milspec weapon in our Rifleman class, with the civilian style weapons acceptable for Buffalo Scout.

Just to emphasize, our "Scout" or "Civilian Contractor" classes are simply meant to enable anyone with "Cowboy" clothes and "Cowboy" weapons to shoot our style of match.  Nor are Military Uniforms required to shoot the Military classes.  Say if you have a Sharps carbine, and you want to see how good you are with it, we're the folks to shoot with.

[Trailrider]

A comment on the M1869 .50-70 cartridge conversions of the Sharps Carbine: When the M1873 Springfield Carbine, cal. .45-70 replaced the Sharps as standard issue, in 1874 (when the Springfields actually were issued), a few of the Sharps were retained at various posts for issue to Quartermaster Dept. employees, including scouts, teamsters, packers and others who went to the field with the troops. At Sidney Barracks, Nebraska, Co. G, 3rd Cav. had five (5) Sharps carbines and over 50,000 rounds of .50-70 ammunition that they kept through at least the end of June 1876. (Ordnance records do not exist after that.)  Co. G had brought these Sharps down to Sidney from Ft. D. A. Russell in 1874. The remainder that had originally been issued to them had been turned in upon issue of the Trapdoor Carbines. At least one of these is believed (to the preponderance of the evidence) to have been issued to a young civilian teamster, who later acquired the carbine by some means, most likely by reporting it "lost" and having had the cost deducted from his pay, as he carved his name in the stock. In the 1960's the carbine turned up in Montana, having been sold by a dealer for the benefit of a widow, whose husband had it in a cabin in the Yakima Valley, Washington. So far as is known, the husband was NOT related to the teamster... But said teamster, in later life, is known to have owned apple and cherry orchards in the Yakima Valley! The youngster (he was 17-18 at the time of his employment) was probably on a company-sized patrol in April 1876 and on the Big Horn & Yellowstone Expedition of 1876 with Gen. Crook's column.
Unfortunately, no written record of the acquisition by the teamster, but other records of similar "loss" ARE known to exist, including one Trapdoor Springfield Carbine "lost" by another teamster, at another post, along with an even 100 rounds of .45 (-55) ammo.  Since combat expendaturers of ammo were mpt chargeable, "loss" of 100 rounds is fishy to say the least!
Point is, a .50-70 Sharps would be perfectly authentic for a teamster, scout, etc.