New member asking about "short-stroke".

[Hammerhead6814]

Hey, new guy here. I've been looking over the boards and it seems like a fine community.

Well what motivated me to join the most was watching the Western 3-Gun shoots on Shooting-USA (outdoor channel). Seems like something interested to get into. But what has me absolutely baffled was the speed in which some of the guys on that show were cycling the actions of their lever-guns. I couldn't figure out how the heck the were pulling off nearly a round a second.

Well a quick search here has me looking to the idea of "Short-Stroke" actions. I've heard about "short-stroke gas pistons" in semi-auto and select fire rifles, but this clearly is something different all together.

So, what exactly is a short-stroke lever gun? How do you tune a regular rifle for it? I've got an old Marlin in the safe with a lever pull that reaches over 110 degrees. Understanding what you guys are doing with them could help me fix that.

[Fairshake]

The toggle bolt guns like the 66 and 73 can have a kit put in that shortens the length of lever travel to chamber a round. Don't need it to have fun and shoot. If you want to compete with the big boys then go on and become a "GAMER"

[RRio]

I know I'll catch a lot of heat for this, but I have never been a fan of short stroking for a couple of reasons.
First off, it's not what they had in the Old West, secondly in my opinion, it alters the appearance of the rifle, not with the action closed, but it sure does when the shooter is working the action.
But that's just my opinion.

[Red Rock Shootist]

I know I'll catch a lot of heat for this, but I have never been a fan of short stroking for a couple of reasons.
First off, it's not what they had in the Old West, secondly in my opinion, it alters the appearance of the rifle, not with the action closed, but it sure does when the shooter is working the action.
But that's just my opinion.

If there were more 'classifications' to add, I'd love to see one that:

1) Disallows all short stroke kits in any gun
2) Requires power factor of 120
3) SxS or lever action shotguns only
4) Requires duelist or gunfighter

That'd be neat.

[Sod Buster]

If there were more 'classifications' to add, I'd love to see one that:

1) Disallows all short stroke kits in any gun
2) Requires power factor of 120
3) SxS or lever action shotguns only
4) Requires duelist or gunfighter

That'd be neat.

You forgot BLACK POWDER ONLY 

[Jefro]

Howdy Hammerhead and Welcome, while the Marlin is not set up like the toggle links it can be made to run extremely fast. A couple of top shooters that can run thier Marlins as fast as the 73 are Deuce Stevens and Widowmaker Hill. For a complete action job  Spur, Longhunter, and many other gunsmiths can make the Marlin fast and reliable.  I shoot BP slowly with a 73  short stroked action job from Pioneer Gun Works, but also have three Marlins with action work. A well tuned Marlin can be a joy to shoot. Good Luck.
spur45@macomb.com
http://www.longhunt.com/index.html
Scroll down to 'Lever Rifle' to see Deuce Stevens world record run with his Marlin
http://www.jspublications.net/records/records.html


Jefro Relax-Enjoy

(And there's nothing wrong with being a highly competitive, experianced shooter, with finely tuned equipment, who put in countless hours of practice, with thousands of rounds down range, always going out of thier way to help new shooters improve, works extremely hard on thier posse,  and plays within the rules...ie.. "Gamer", many of which I call friend.)

[Daniel Nighteyes]

I have had the distinct pleasure of regularly shooting with FIVE national champions -- Lefty Longridge, Frederick Jackson Turner, Lead Dispencer, Badlands Bud, and Tex Fiddler.  I'm here to tellya that short-stroking a rifle is only one part of the total picture.  Just last weekend I was shooting with two of the aforementioned, and can definitely say that the ring of their pistol shots on steel sounded very much like an alarm clock:  ding-ding-ding-ding-ding -- pause -- ding-ding-ding-ding-ding!

In other words, there is a definable difference between folks like you and me, and those who are proven champions.  They could beat us with completely unaltered firearms, folks, and not even break a sweat.  The difference, besides lots-and-lots of practice, is a physical skill that can only be found in one of a thousand (or so).

Regards,

-- Nighteyes (the slow and steady)

[Red Rock Shootist]

They could beat us with completely unaltered firearms, folks, and not even break a sweat. 

While I don't disagree with that statement, wouldn't it be more fun and enjoyable to be beaten by them using unaltered firearms?

I think it would.     I'm not questioning their skill, I realize their skill, and would love to see it consistently displayed without enhanced guns.

While I'm new to CAS, I'm no stranger to competition (High Power - Camp Perry, 3 gun, etc), and it's the man, not the gear - so let's not put such an emphasis on these gear hacks, and more on shooting. 

I've always found it interesting that a shooting competition tentatively based on the old west is filled with technology and enhancements to guns that never were.

I realize I'm in the minority in these circles, so it's probably unpopular speech.   I certainly don't maintain to offend anyone, just speaking my mind.   

As fun and great as CAS is, I personally think it would be better off without short stroke kits, limiting or restricting the light loads and then putting targets out at further distances occasionally.

[River City John]

While I don't disagree with that statement, wouldn't it be more fun and enjoyable to be beaten by them using unaltered firearms?

I think it would.     I'm not questioning their skill, I realize their skill, and would love to see it consistently displayed without enhanced guns.

While I'm new to CAS, I'm no stranger to competition (High Power - Camp Perry, 3 gun, etc), and it's the man, not the gear - so let's not put such an emphasis on these gear hacks, and more on shooting. 

I've always found it interesting that a shooting competition tentatively based on the old west is filled with technology and enhancements to guns that never were.

I realize I'm in the minority in these circles, so it's probably unpopular speech.   I certainly don't maintain to offend anyone, just speaking my mind.   

As fun and great as CAS is, I personally think it would be better off without short stroke kits, limiting or restricting the light loads and then putting targets out at further distances occasionally.

You need to check out NCOWS. The NCOWS Forum is a bit further down the page here. Lots of like-minded folks who feel modifications have nothing to do with capturing the experience of Old West shooting.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

+1!

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

A good can shooter dump rounds out of a tuned rifle a lot faster than one per second. I've shot with lots of guys who can probably get off 10 shots in 4 or 5 seconds on a dump on one target. Generally, there has been a lot more than just a short stroke done to those guns. They have been totally tuned, from top to bottom to eliminate internal friction, had lightened springs added, and a short stroke. A short stroke is fairly easy to do to a toggle link gun, an 1860 Henry, 1866, or 1873. New links are dropped in which have a slightly different geometry, shortening the amount of lever throw needed to push the bolt all the way back. Bear in mind, we are talking about levers here, and one inescapable law of physics is that with any lever, it requires more force to do the same amount of work with less stroke. In other words, if the stroke is shortened, it will require more force exerted by the shooter to work the action. This fact is overcome by lightening springs, and reducing internal friction.

The Marlin is quite different inside than the toggle link guns, no short stroke kits exist for them. The only smith I am aware of that can shortstroke a Marlin is Spur. I'm not quite sure what he does, but here is his web page.

http://www.shadycreekshootists.com/shortstroke.htm

Regarding whether or not short strokes etc should be allowed, this is a very old argument, and frankly, it is a tired one. The argument raged for so long that two years ago SASS drew a line in the sand about what would be allowed and what would not be allowed for modifications. Rather than outlaw a whole lot of guns that were already legal, many of the existing modifications were grandfathered in.

To those who don't like action jobs and shortstroke kidts, you might find it interesting sometime to compare the lever stroke on an original Winchester Model 1873 to the unaltered stroke on a modern Uberti 1873 replica. The original was shorter than the unaltered Uberti. But that begs the question. The simple fact is, most of the guns we shoot today are not as well manufactured as the originals were over 100 years ago. One of the facts of old time gunmaking was the guns needed considerable hand work before they left the factory. The part fabrication methods employed at the time necessitated this. Highly skilled assemblers were employed to carefully fit the internal parts together. This included polishing the parts so that the rubbing surfaces were smooth and had no burrs on them. Modern guns leave the assembly line full of rough surfaces and burrs inside. I have been inside enough of Uberti's products to know this first hand. The roughness of the parts creates extra friction when the actions are operated, and the manufacturers compensate for this by installing heavier springs to overcome the friction. The guns available today are simply not as well manufactured as their 19th Century originals were. Uberti and the others could probably go back to employing those highly skilled workers to properly fit the parts, but you would not want to pay the resultant price increase. So what most cowboy smiths are doing is simply removing the internal friction and replacing the springs with lighter ones which will still do the job of firing primers. That's what action jobs are all about. Wishing to shoot unaltered guns right out of the box misses the fact that you are actually handicapping yourself by shooting guns that are not as smooth and do not operate as perfectly as the originals did.

As for a power factor, I load my 44-40 and 45 Colt rounds with a case full of Black Powder. My 45s are pushing a 250 grain bullet out at about 800 fps, my 44-40s push a 200 grain bullet out of my rifles at about 1000 fps. WIll that make the proposed power factor?

[Red Rock Shootist]

As for a power factor, I load my 44-40 and 45 Colt rounds with a case full of Black Powder. My 45s are pushing a 250 grain bullet out at about 800 fps, my 44-40s push a 200 grain bullet out of my rifles at about 1000 fps. WIll that make the proposed power factor?

Yes, either of those loads would be well above and beyond what I proposed in this thread.

Your 45 would be a factor of 200, and the 44-40 would be the same. 

Essentially, those same bullets at almost HALF the velocity (or weight) would meet that power factor of 120.

I'm seeing people at matches with 32 loads that I think would be bested by .22LR.

[Camille Eonich]

Howdy

A good can shooter dump rounds out of a tuned rifle a lot faster than one per second. I've shot with lots of guys who can probably get off 10 shots in 4 or 5 seconds on a dump on one target. Generally, there has been a lot more than just a short stroke done to those guns. They have been totally tuned, from top to bottom to eliminate internal friction, had lightened springs added, and a short stroke. A short stroke is fairly easy to do to a toggle link gun, an 1860 Henry, 1866, or 1873. New links are dropped in which have a slightly different geometry, shortening the amount of lever throw needed to push the bolt all the way back. Bear in mind, we are talking about levers here, and one inescapable law of physics is that with any lever, it requires more force to do the same amount of work with less stroke. In other words, if the stroke is shortened, it will require more force exerted by the shooter to work the action. This fact is overcome by lightening springs, and reducing internal friction.

Excellent and so truthful!

The Marlin is quite different inside than the toggle link guns, no short stroke kits exist for them. The only smith I am aware of that can shortstroke a Marlin is Spur. I'm not quite sure what he does, but here is his web page.

http://www.shadycreekshootists.com/shortstroke.htm

More good stuff.

To those who don't like action jobs and shortstroke kidts, you might find it interesting sometime to compare the lever stroke on an original Winchester Model 1873 to the unaltered stroke on a modern Uberti 1873 replica. The original was shorter than the unaltered Uberti. But that begs the question. The simple fact is, most of the guns we shoot today are not as well manufactured as the originals were over 100 years ago. One of the facts of old time gunmaking was the guns needed considerable hand work before they left the factory. The part fabrication methods employed at the time necessitated this. Highly skilled assemblers were employed to carefully fit the internal parts together. This included polishing the parts so that the rubbing surfaces were smooth and had no burrs on them. Modern guns leave the assembly line full of rough surfaces and burrs inside. I have been inside enough of Uberti's products to know this first hand. The roughness of the parts creates extra friction when the actions are operated, and the manufacturers compensate for this by installing heavier springs to overcome the friction. The guns available today are simply not as well manufactured as their 19th Century originals were. Uberti and the others could probably go back to employing those highly skilled workers to properly fit the parts, but you would not want to pay the resultant price increase. So what most cowboy smiths are doing is simply removing the internal friction and replacing the springs with lighter ones which will still do the job of firing primers. That's what action jobs are all about. Wishing to shoot unaltered guns right out of the box misses the fact that you are actually handicapping yourself by shooting guns that are not as smooth and do not operate as perfectly as the originals did.

Yep.


Just had to quote and agree.  No one says it better than Driftwood.

[Camille Eonich]

I'm seeing people at matches with 32 loads that I think would be bested by .22LR.

They are only hurting themselves.  The really fast shooters want quick feedback and don't download that much.

[Adirondack Jack]

Howdy Jefro,

THE Marlin mechanic that does the short strokes is not Jimmy Spur, but rather "Spur aka Gary Blansett of Macomb, IL.  his email is spur45@macomb.com

I know both of these folks, and Jimmy does a fair marlin job, but is excellent with the toggle links.  Jimmy sells "race ready" 66 and 73 rifles out of his cowboy gunworks. 

  Spur is THE Marlin specialist, making em sing and short stroking em to under 5" in some case (Mine are 4 5/8 using short rounds).

Even a pokey guy like me can run 10 through my "Spur Special" Marlin in about 3.5 seconds, compared to 6 and change with a slicked but mostly stock marlin.  (wish my pistol and SG work was near as fast).

[Jefro]

Howdy Jefro,

THE Marlin mechanic that does the short strokes is not Jimmy Spur, but rather "Spur aka Gary Blansett of Macomb, IL.  his email is spur45@macomb.com

Thanks AJ, edited my post with correct info and saved it with my favorites.

Jefro

[Professor Honeyfuggler]

I've always found it interesting that a shooting competition tentatively based on the old west is filled with technology and enhancements to guns that never were.

And I find it ironic that SASS, which was started by some guys who were bored with the "gear races" other leagues had become and just wanted to have some old-fashioned fun fun shooting, has itself become a "gear race." 

At least for some. The "gamers" all shoot pretty much identical rigs, and a few are pretty snobby about anything else you might show up with at a match. (Not all, but some) But I'm not out to challenge the top guns, I'm out to have some fun shooting. My competitve urge is satisfied by working hard to shoot clean matches, and to try to better my previous stage times, as well as to have some laughs with the other more casual shooters like myself. I really appreciate that the clubs I've shot with are welcoming to shooters with disabilities and other physical challenges, as well as shooters who don't have the latest and greatest gear.

If anything, I feel a little sorry for some of the "gamers" I've shot with who can rip through a stage in maybe a quarter the time I do, but who are so grim and unfun to be around that I have to wonder why they do it that way.

As to having to drive an hour to get a club to shoot... be glad that's all it is. Here in Austin i can get to a couple of clubs in an hour, but my favorite clubs to shoot at are an hour and a half to two hours away. On a Saturday morning it's a big sacrifice for me to get up early enough to make that drive in time to shoot, but I do it because I have so much fun at those clubs.

Fun. That's the most essential detail of the whole shebang for me. Be sure you get you some.

Professor Honeyfuggler

[Adirondack Jack]

I gotta take the RARE opportunity to educate my pard, Driftwood.  Spur makes a marlin into a "Spur Special" by doing some things ya probably thought of, like a lot of slicking and replacing the firing pin and springs with more "race-appropriate" units.  Then he makes a totally new carrier out of bar stock that changes the geometry of the round handling to allow a shorter throw (using shorter ammo), and reprofiles the top (business end) of the lever to match, achieving a shorter throw.  The Marlin is of course direct drive, where the lever literally drives the bolt proportionately, so ya end up with a shorter bolt throw, and need short ammo to make it all work.  In the extreme, ya can take a .45 Colt marlin designed to run with rounds 1.6" long all the way down till it will run with rounds from 1.050 to 1.225 long (though it's smoothest with those closer to 1.2).  Ya end up with the bolt moving a lot less (a .45 colt round wouldn't fit in the open port of my rifle), and a resulting lever throw that JUST cocks the hammer with no overtravel.  Not for everybody, but what in this world is?  as long as we're all having fun, laughing at IP and WBB, what's not to like? 

[Professor Honeyfuggler]

Ya end up with the bolt moving a lot less (a .45 colt round wouldn't fit in the open port of my rifle), and a resulting lever throw that JUST cocks the hammer with no overtravel. 

Holy Calhoun, that is some amazing gunsmithery!

[Dr. Bob]

So, without a short stroke, I can load 16 44 Russians in my Henry and it's a real hoot!