Now I'm Curious

Daniel Nighteyes · March 15, 2009, 03:15:05 PM

The thread on the '51 conversion, and particularly the part about the Man With No Name gun, started me thinking (sometimes a terrible thing...). I wonder if the Richards-Navy/Man With No Name barrel assembly will fit on the '51 Richards-Mason.

Does anyone know? Anyone? Anyone?

Abilene · March 15, 2009, 11:21:55 PM

Since the MWNN uses a '71-72 Opentop frame, then it would be the same question to ask if an Opentop barrel will fit on a '51 R-M frame, and there are probably more folks out there with those two guns who could tell you.

And if it would, then the question becomes how to get a MWNN barrel, and that would not be easy.

Thai Fighter · March 16, 2009, 12:08:47 AM

All this talk about TMWNN, for those of us so addicted to hi-def:

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Fox/MGM/Disc_Announcements/Blu-ray_to_Get_Good,_Bad_and_Ugly_this_May/2538

Coffinmaker · March 16, 2009, 08:56:16 AM

Well .......................

A partial answer is .... probably!! My main match guns are Open Tops with all the calibers on one frame and my "other" main match guns are '51 R-M conversions in .38. The .38 Open Top barrels and '51 R-M barrels will swap with minor fitting at the arbor.
My Open Tops currently have .51 R-M octagon barrels with a dove tail front and rear sight. If 'ya swap the Open Top barrels onto the Navys, the longer hammer with the hammer nose rear sight gets in the way. If you wanted round barrels on a '51, you could clean off the rear sight from the Open Top barrel and use the Hammer sight, or whack off the top of the '51 hammer.
I can get access to a TMWNN conversion (not soon) but my bet is TMWNN will swap directly onto the '51 .38 conversion.

Coffinmaker

Fiddler Green · March 16, 2009, 09:54:09 AM

I'm guessing that it will not. The 1851 has a thinner center pin then the later guns.

Bruce

Coffinmaker · March 16, 2009, 10:39:53 PM

Fiddler,

The 1851 Conversions, the Open Top and TMWNN guns are all built on the same Uberti frame. The arbor for all three is the same part/dimension within manufacturing tolerance. Swapping barrels between the three just requires minor fitting at the arbor.
I do NOT believe a MWNN barrel will fit on an actual BP Uberti '51. Those are different.

Coffinmaker

Abilene · March 16, 2009, 10:55:07 PM

Coffinmaker,
I think I know what you are saying but the '51 R-M frame is not the same as the OT and MWNN (OT) frame. The arbor and barrel pin alignment may be the same for barrel interchangeability but the R-M frame is different and cylinders do not interchange. The only internal part they share is the bolt.

Yoiu are correct about the percussion barrels not fitting the cartridge gun frames and vice versa, at least not without major work.

Coffinmaker · March 17, 2009, 07:46:50 AM

Abilene,

Correct. The cylinders do not interchange. However, the basic frame is the same. The difference is the machine work for the Breach Ring. I may have miss-led a bit (I did that once before) as the barrels between R-M conversions and the Open Top all interchange with a little fitting.
The '51 Navy R-M barrel barrel mates to the Open Top and vice versa. The BP '51 Navy barrel will only mate to a BP '51 Navy.
There is even a difference between calibers on the R-M Conversions. The Breach Rings between .38 and .44 on the R-M guns are different and you can't change caliber on the same gun the way you can with the Open Top. The Open Top is the most versatile of all.

By the way, I have a customer wanting a pair of Richards Type IIs in .44 Colt with the 8" barrels, do you now if Cimarron has them in stock yet?? Soon as I told her the cylinders have the gas ring (she shoots BP) she got excited to get a pair!!

Coffinmaker

Daniel Nighteyes · March 17, 2009, 10:13:03 AM

Quote from: Coffinmaker on March 16, 2009, 10:39:53 PM
I do NOT believe a MWNN barrel will fit on an actual BP Uberti '51. Those are different.

I tried fitting a BP Uberti '61 Colt barrel assembly onto my '51 Richards-Mason, and you're right. They're substantially different.

Abilene · March 17, 2009, 11:18:39 AM

Quote from: Coffinmaker on March 17, 2009, 07:46:50 AM
Abilene,
<snip>
By the way, I have a customer wanting a pair of Richards Type IIs in .44 Colt with the 8" barrels, do you now if Cimarron has them in stock yet?? Soon as I told her the cylinders have the gas ring (she shoots BP) she got excited to get a pair!!

Coffinmaker

I'm out of town and won't be back at Cimarron for several weeks. But as of last week they had all calibers of Type II in stock in both 5.5" and 8". Personally, I'd go with the 44 spcl instead of 44 Colt for more versatility. I don't even know why Uberti still makes 44 Colt unless there are folks who just really want the bottom of the barrel to say "44 Colt"

Abilene

Coyote Hunter · March 17, 2009, 01:58:28 PM

Hey Abeline...do you know if they have the Typre 2 in .45 8". I'm having to do the leg work for the one and only gun dealer out here and am wanting to get a trade going with him before they are gone again. He's making me do all the phone calls.

Abilene · March 17, 2009, 02:01:08 PM

Howdy Coyote,
Yes, they got lots of those. Good luck.
Abilene

Daniel Nighteyes · March 17, 2009, 03:51:29 PM

Quote from: Abilene on March 17, 2009, 11:18:39 AM
I'm out of town and won't be back at Cimarron for several weeks. But as of last week they had all calibers of Type II in stock in both 5.5" and 8". Personally, I'd go with the 44 spcl instead of 44 Colt for more versatility. I don't even know why Uberti still makes 44 Colt unless there are folks who just really want the bottom of the barrel to say "44 Colt"

How about folks who're limited to what calibers they can use? "44 Special" isn't an older caliber, while "44 Colt" is. (Never mind that the new 44 Colt isn't, ah, exactly like the original one...)

-- Nighteyes

Coffinmaker · March 17, 2009, 09:59:04 PM

Daniel,

By the way, as soon as I can get that TMWNN conversion back in my grimy little paws, I'll take it apart and see just how many of the Open Tops and Conversions it WILL fit on. Getting back to the original auestion .................. sort of

I was originally curious what it would fit on when I had it in for the action work but just plain forgot and gave it back to it's owner before I remembered the "what does this fit" test. Oops.

Coffinmaker

PS: There are allot of them (the new old guns) that aren't "exactly" but they are close enough to be real fun to play with

Coffinmaker

Abilene · March 17, 2009, 11:28:49 PM

Quote from: Daniel Nighteyes on March 17, 2009, 03:51:29 PM
How about folks who're limited to what calibers they can use? "44 Special" isn't an older caliber, while "44 Colt" is. (Never mind that the new 44 Colt isn't, ah, exactly like the original one...)

-- Nighteyes

Daniel,
I just meant that with the 44 spcl you can shoot 3 calibers whereas with the 44 Colt you can only shoot two. Even if you plan on shooting just 44 Colt or 44 Russian, ya never know when ya might wanna try some specials. I'm currently loading 44 Spcl for two Colts, a Thunderer, and a '66, but I'm slowly gathering up 44 Colt brass and will play with that some down the road.

Kentuckian · March 18, 2009, 09:19:45 AM

So the bottom line is that you can safely shoot .44 Colt & .44 Russian out of Open Tops and Conversions in .44 Special?
Just curious as I'm trying to figure which gun & Caliber to go with.

Daniel Nighteyes · March 18, 2009, 10:37:45 AM

Quote from: Coffinmaker on March 17, 2009, 09:59:04 PM
Daniel,

By the way, as soon as I can get that TMWNN conversion back in my grimy little paws, I'll take it apart and see just how many of the Open Tops and Conversions it WILL fit on.

Muchos gracias, amigo!

Abilene · March 18, 2009, 11:57:27 AM

Quote from: Kentuckian on March 18, 2009, 09:19:45 AM
So the bottom line is that you can safely shoot .44 Colt & .44 Russian out of Open Tops and Conversions in .44 Special?
Just curious as I'm trying to figure which gun & Caliber to go with.

Yes. But note that the Opentops and Type II Richards are produced in both .44 Spcl and 44 Colt, but the Richards-Mason is produced in 44 Colt only, no 44 Spcl for some reason. HOWEVER, if whatever model you want is only in stock in 44 Colt, you can always have the cylinder reamed to 44 Spcl (it's only 1/16" difference). Cimarron will do it for you before shipping if you ask, and any gunsmith with the proper reamer can do it also. So if your dealer calls Cimarron and they say sorry, that model is not in stock in 44 Spcl, then ask if it is available in 44 Colt and if so ask them to ream it.

One caveat I might mention is the old Armi-San-Marcos Richards conversions, which had a smaller diameter cylinder. Those were made in 44 Colt but cannot be reamed to 44 Spcl nor can they chamber 44 Russian, because the Spcl and Russian rim diameter is larger than the 44Colt and the rims overlap (well, you could chamber 3 Russians, skipping every other chamber).

Daniel Nighteyes · April 20, 2009, 09:35:23 AM

Quote from: Coffinmaker on March 17, 2009, 09:59:04 PM
Daniel,

By the way, as soon as I can get that TMWNN conversion back in my grimy little paws, I'll take it apart and see just how many of the Open Tops and Conversions it WILL fit on.

Pards,

Coffinmaker let me know yesterday that he test-fitted the MWNN barrel to the 51 Richards Mason frame. The fit, as he reported, is "like it was made for it". As he also reported, it will fit on the .38 OT.

Many thanks, Coffinmaker!