cross draw - to cant or not

[Black River Johnny]

I am thinking about trying double duelist and using two cross draws, I am going to make a couple of 49'ers, I was looking for input on whether or not to cant them or keep them straight. If I dont cant them I probably could just spin them around and have two traditional holsters if I dont like cross draw, what are some opinions from you guys that have shot cross draw for awhile? Thanks

[Marshal Deadwood]

Personally, I dont get a 'canted' holster made,,but just a reg right side straight drop carry.,,,If I'm drawing 'cross-draw' at a shoot...I just tip my 'cant' into it as I set for the stage. If you have it 'made' canted,,,you are kinda stuck with it that way,,if you get it made for straight carry,,,you can then use it as a side holster if you chose. I suppose its up to the individual,,just a straight drop hoslter  gives you more options for ya riggins. And,,,the historians say a hoslter made 'canted for cross-draw' might be kinda rare on the docum side of historical accuracy, esp early on in the revolver era.

I DO love the '49'er holsters. Plealse show us some pics when ya get'em done, hoss.

MD

[Black River Johnny]

And,,,the historians say a hoslter made 'canted for cross-draw' might be kinda rare on the docum side of historical accuracy, esp early on in the revolver era.


Thanks for  that tid bit, With that I think I will go with the straight, plus the more options.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Good choice, pard. In my own rigs, I don't use crossdraw holsters. I've done a lot of double duelist and with double crossdraws, you'd be pulling them separately all the time with a twist both ways. Double duelist is much easier with strong sides and when you want to pull both at the same time, you can. I wouldn't even try butt-forward straight drop holsters, although it is mighty cool-looking.

There's a Frazier holster in Packing Iron that has the proper cant, but it is dated 1910-1920. I can't find any earlier examples.

[Slowhand Bob]

If you do not get carried away with the amount of cant, you can have it both ways.  My favorite traditional holster is the high ride California Slim Jim and when worn with the early style looong barl revolvers it just makes the old arthritic  joints, from the shoulders down, scream fer some relief.  It has been my personal experience that if I add around fifteen degrees muzzle forward on the cant and wear the gun just forward of the hip, I git better joint mobility as well as pain relief.  The claim that the only way to handle a long barl is with Buskys or extreme holster drops was proven bogus by a whole generation of gunmen in the 1800s.  Just for fun try to slide thet strong side holster just forward of the hip and see what a difference it makes when you are not trying to pull that hawglaig up under your armpit!  Fifteen degrees is only five short of what I make for a full blown x-draw anyhows so its not overly noticeable to use my strong sides as cross draws.

[JD Alan]

Hey Bob, could you explain how you create a 15 degree muzzle forward cant instead of a straight, or zero cant. Oh boy, another newbie question! JD

[Ace Lungger]

Howdy Black River Johnny,
first and foremost, i am not able to CAS shoot, but i have been and shot 1 and part of another! Both times I was wearing my double coss draw 21 degree canted holsters! I don't shoot long barrel guns! I do have some and if I get any relief I am going to try them at our range! I love the way they fit, feel, and look! To keep from the twisting, shooting duelist, if you are shooting short barrel guns, do like i did, when I was at the line before the set, I would reverse my pistols, even though it looked a little funky, because of putting them in reverse, they draw quick, because they are just sitting in the holster!
Remember that this is only my 2 cents! And I don't think, when it comes to period correct, I see a lot of photo's of people in the Chronical, that they wear there cross draw right under the belly button! I have never seen a real picture of a cowboy wearing his rig that away!
you also want to remeber this, the shoot i went to, I didn't go to WIN, I went to have fun and shoot good, I shot each gun great, but being a first timer, I was very slow changing from pistol to rifle to shotgun, because safty was on my mind, and I am not a person that can throw there gun down, like I have seen a lot of them do on the outdoor channel! But, that is life, you and your choice of how you want to do your holsters, they need to fit you, and work like you want!!

JD, you need to spend the $12.00 for The Book How to make Holsters by Al Stohlman. He shows you how to do all this, and also has templates, after I traded for my 6 stamp starter set, I was advise to by this book, and I am sure glad I did!
Just my 2 cents!

I just want to have fun
ACE

[JD Alan]

Hi Ace, I do have Mr. Stohlman's holster book, and it's a good one. However, I am finding out there are many ways to "Skin a Cat" and some pards have developed interesting, and sometimes easier ways to do things than the "Stohlman Way".

Slowhand Bob seems to have a lot of experience, and some different ways to do things. 'Course he could come back with "I do it just like Al Stohlman says to do it!'

I guess we'll see!

Bless you Ace, I pray your back begins to amend (John 4:52)     

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I have found that MY belt line gives a straight holster just a bit of a forward tilt on the strong side, and if worn cross draw it also tips forward giving just enough cant to be convenient.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

I shoot double duelist most of the time, using the cross-draw "single duelist" approach only occasionally.  The rest of the time I do it this way:

http://s10.photobucket.com/albums/a124/danielnighteyes/CAS%20Pictures/?action=view&current=NighteyesReverseDrawDemo.flv

Within a couple of weeks I hope to have some more effective demonstration videos to show y'all.  Until then, though, any questions?

[Ace Lungger]

howdy  Daniel Nighteyes ,
Real cool way to draw those Irons Pard !

J.D., there may be other ways, but I cannot think how, but i will be thinking on it!
I do thank you for your prayers, but i have been to several spinal surgeons with no hope! and there are so many people out there that need Gods help more than me! If I could have one day a month so I could shoot it would be great!

I just want to have fun
ACE

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Daniel, you make that look easy and smooth. I'm impressed. Thanks for the video.

[Slowhand Bob]

Johnny, I'm sorry that I did not cover my thoughts on the cross draw earlier.  I do like it but have tried to move away from it a couple of times in the past and am making some new lefties to make another try at leaving it soon.  There is a bit of a hassle caused by a few but that is not my real reason for wanting to leave it.  I plan to try Double Duelist for awhile in Frontier Cartridge Duelist and hope for Black Powder Gunfighter before this old pard goes to the happy gun range in the sky!! 

WOW Daniel, impressed me.  If you guys ever get a chance to watch an old made for tv movie, Pugatory I think, watch the double twist draw in that.  It appears that the WBH character slaps the gun butts 180degs within the holster before even acquiring his grip.

Jd, I am afraid that I am in possession of no special trick for the cross draw pattern.  I pretty much use the method that is shown in Stohlmans Holster Book and thats the same method as shown with the Ghormley pattern sets also.  Establish the centerline line of the belt loop fold for a straight drop holster and split the pattern there.  I do have some small wedges cut that I can plug into this devide to quickly get the correct angle for my desired cant.  Just remember that these wedges must have double the degrees that you want on the holster.  Also remember that for cross draw you angle the skirt across the mouth of the holster and go the opposite for and FBI/Duke cant.

There are some really good reference materials out there for pattern making now days.  There are at least a half dozen videos I could recommend whole heartily.  If Hide Crafters are still in buisiness, check to see if any of the materials by Jim Simmons are still available, in particular his book entitled YAAHOO and his holster making DVD.  Though I do not use many of the techniques that he does, he has come up with some interesting ideas that should reall help out with sizing patterns as well as several other steps.  The one method I would recommend that you not try is his main seam sewing method.  I tried it a couple of times, being as meticulous as possible, and considered it to be a nightmare. 

[JD Alan]

What a cool darw method there Daniel. I'm afraid if I tried that I would break my arm, wrist, and shoot myself in the foot! You make it look real easy. Thanks for that video

Well Bob, a guy can only ask! (You were right Ace!) I do appreciate the reply. I am trying to change over to left and right strong side, so I guess it's a matter of time. I've been shooting about a year cross darw, so it's not that long of a time period to get over.

I appreciate the thread, JD

[Daniel Nighteyes]

Daniel, you make that look easy and smooth.

Thanks!  Actually, with a little practice, it can be.  The reverse draw can be just as fast as the "regular" one.  What's good enough for Bill Hickock is good enough for me!

Back to the original question -- to cant or not.  My experience has been that, by using straight-hang holsters for the cross-draw, in combination with a little thought, ya don't have to do the "cross-draw dance" at a SASS or W3G match.  Just imagine the same draw I did in the video, except as a cross-draw, and you'll see what I mean.

[Ace Lungger]

Daniel,
Again I loved the video, but I am lost by you last statement, you were wearing crossdraw rig, and I thought that was what you did was, a draw with a cross draw holster, just not using the right hand to draw the left side gun? I kinda see what you are saying, since I have not shot a SASS match, if you have canted cross draw holster,  are you not allowed to draw like you did?
I know the 2 shoots I went to, the barrel had to be pointed to the side, so I assume a canted crossdraw holster, no matter how you draw it, has to face the side, is that right?

I appoligies for my 
ACE

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

Howdy Daniel Nighteyes
        Your Video showed really well how the twist and draw works, you don't have to have an angle degree cant when wearing your holster this way, and it's comfortable to wear too, this is a nice feature about the Slim Jim style of holster, you can wear it either way, but the reverse draw is the easiest for long tubed guns.
       Your right about the cross draw, it sure worked for Hickock, and I've tried it myself, if toting long barreled guns, the twist and draw is a lot easier and faster than trying  to pull a 7 1/2" barreled sixgun out of a strong side holster, unless you have the strong side pushed around to the front so the gun can be pulled to the side and back, but wearing your holster like this is uncomfortable to say the least, you wouldn't want to be walking around like this there would be too much rubbing. When wearing a short barreled sixgun, it doesn't matter much how you wear it, it will clean leather quick in either the strong side or cross draw, but when ridding or in a car I like the cross draw hands down, it's easier to get your hands on. ( IMHO )


                                                                     tEN wOLVES   

[Daniel Nighteyes]

Daniel,
...I am lost by you last statement... are you not allowed to draw like you did?
I know the 2 shoots I went to, the barrel had to be pointed to the side, so I assume a canted crossdraw holster, no matter how you draw it, has to face the side, is that right?

Ace,

The critical thing is to not "break the 170" with the muzzle at any time.  With a canted holster, there's a real danger of breaking the 170 unless you "face to the side", as you put it, with the holster on the side closest to the firing line.  The foot- and hip-work commonly required to do that is called "the dance".

With a straight-hang holster, and with a wee bit of care, one can execute a cross-draw without having to do "the dance".  You draw the pistol straight up, while exerting a little "downrange pressure" on the barrel.  The moment the barrel clears leather it starts pointing downrange, but the pistol is more or less upside down.  Wait until just before the pistol comes level, then rotate it upright, and -- Voila!

To reholster with one hand, simply reverse the movement:  Invert the pistol, then bring the barrel back toward the holster until the pistol is vertical, and re-insert.  Be sure to watch the pistol into the holster. 

Or, you can reholster the fancier way that I do, which is actually quite secure but requires a fair amount of practice.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

Your right about the cross draw, it sure worked for Hickock...

Actually, if my recaller is working properly (and at my age it sometimes doesn't), Hickock didn't always use the cross-draw.  Sometimes he pulled his pistols the same way I do - left pistol with left hand, right pistol with right hand.

I remember a scene in the TV series Deadwood where one of the Carradine boys (I can never keep them straight), playing Bill Hickock, was standing in the street facing a couple of horsemen.  One of the horsemen went for his gun, and Hickock/Carradine pulled both pistols the way I do and shot both of 'em dead.

[Ace Lungger]

Daniel,
After watching your video, I went and put on my favorite double Cross draw, and got my 72's out 4 3/4" barrel
And did the twist draw like you did, and those short barreled guns realy come out fast. found out that the Cassville boys are having 40 shooters, so i am going to try there next shoot, with that many, I should get lots of rest between stages, and I am going to do the double twist draw!
Thanks for sharing!
ACE