Lets Talk Punch!

[Bryan Austin]

I wanted to learn a little bit about knock down power in a cartridge. I was looking at my wife's 380 auto defense laods. Federal Premium 90 grn HP HYDRA SHOK. Looks like 200 ft-lbs at the muzzle and 180 at 25 yards. So for 10 feet, i'd say 200 ft-lbs.

cal - ft-lbs at muzzle
38 Spl - 150-235
45 Auto - between 400 and 500.
44 Mag - between 1,000 and 1,500
9mm Luger 320-410
45 Colt - 473-580
40 S&W - 400-490

and my trusty 44-40 - 628

Obviously this depends on the ammo you use....which brings up my question

What is the ft/lbs at the muzzle for the 44-40 and typs of black powder, including subs!

[Delmonico]

Ya got yer cipherin' tool handy:

Kinetic Energy (KE) = 1/2 MV2

Velocity (V) is usually given in feet/second (fps) and mass (M) is given in pounds, derived from the weight (W) of the bullet in grains, divided by 7000 grains per pound times the acceleration of gravity (32 ft/sec) so that:

Kinetic Energy (KE) = W(V)2 / (450,435) ft/lb

This is the bullet's energy as it leaves the muzzle, but the ballistic coefficient (BC) will determine the amount of KE delivered to the target as air resistance is encountered.


Remember though, there is more to what a round will do than kinetic energy,

My Sharps with a 500 gr BP load has right about the same kinetic energy as my brothers 220 Swift, think quick, there is a mean Grizzly Bear, which one do you want to borrow.

[Bryan Austin]

My Sharps with a 500 gr BP load has right about the same kinetic energy as my brothers 220 Swift, think quick, there is a mean Grizzly Bear, which one do you want to borrow.

EXACTLY! or a 200 lb criminal!

[Delmonico]

I'd take the Swift on the bad guy.

A little story, my brother is a dang good shooter, but he ain't real savy on ballistics, don't need to be, just asks his brother what to use.

When I first had the Sharps, he got a anti-freeze jug and filled it with water, set it on a board he had on our back stop 200 yards away.  Now he knew what the 22-250 he had at the time, my 243, his 270 and even my 22 Hornet would do to the jug, wanted to see what that buffalo rifle would do. 

I told him it would not be very impressive, but humored him.  I shot and he said I missed it, didn't know how, so had him spot the hit, right in the center of the jug and it's was peein' on the backing paper, and the dang thing was sitting on the narrow side of a 2X4.

That pointed bullet didn't trnasfer much energy, the 322 HP though will do better, the jug will split and fall over.

[Bryan Austin]

It had the energy, the bullet was just "aerodynamic" as it punched through huh?

[Delmonico]

It had the energy, the bullet was just "aerodynamic" as it punched through huh?

The small point on that RCBS-500-Sil bullet does not transfer much energy.

In killing game it is really not the energy of a bullet that kills, but the damage it does to tissue and the central nervous system.

[Bryan Austin]

If his 22-250 had a sold point, would it simply do what yours did? I like to watch youtube...man them guys can bust up some stuff!
"Jacket" isn't this just to keep the bore clean...er than just using plain lead?
Love the prarie dog exploding shots!

Never could understand why"Full Metal Jacket" excited so many (ROTC) teenagers when I was in school!
I figured it would just slice trhough whatever it hid instead of splattering it.

[Forty Rod]

This is starting to remind me of the arrow-bullet argument I had with a friend almost fifty years ago.

[Delmonico]

Jackets and alloy of the lead core can control expansion.

FMJ are really any more of two kinds.  Heavy non-expanding ones intended to travel straight and deep in heavy skinned big game with big bones.

Military ones started out that way, required by the signers of the Hauge Accorrds, early in the 20th century.  (Not the Geneva Convention as many say)  Involved a situation in the Boer War, some ammo not intened to be used on civiliezed folks got used on some Boers.  Long story but they were out of the Dum Dum arsenal in Inda, so every dumb writer now call expanding bullets Dum Dums.

By WWI the non-expanding military bullets had progressed to the point many would turn around in a body and do more damage, but at least they didn't expand, most are of that type today.

[Delmonico]

This is starting to remind me of the arrow-bullet argument I had with a friend almost fifty years ago.

Was no need to argue my friend, the projectile that causes the best quality wound kills the fastest.

Either kills by blood loss which shuts off the brain or by damaging the central nervous system bad enough to stop the signals from the brain to get to the rest of the body.

[Leo Tanner]

If ya read the big game hunting stuff, they are always talkin about penetration depths when reviewing ammo.  The full (or total) metal jacket always seems ta be what the guys who head over to africa want.  If there is any difference batween FMJ and TMJ, I have no idea.

[Delmonico]

If ya read the big game hunting stuff, they are always talkin about penetration depths when reviewing ammo.  The full (or total) metal jacket always seems ta be what the guys who head over to africa want.  If there is any difference batween FMJ and TMJ, I have no idea.

TMJ is done with an electoplate and covers the bullet fully to keep lead particles out of the air on indoor ranges.

[Leo Tanner]

Thank ya

[Bryan Austin]

I did find this

FMJ has a copper or brass jacket that extends from the tip of the bullet to the base but in some cases leaves the bottom side exposed, basically like a copper condom.

TMJ encases the whole bullet in Copper or brass, often used at indoor ranges where exposer to lead is an issue.

[Raider2000]

I can give ya some ballistics for my lil Pietta Mew Model Army w/ 5.5" barrel as a comparrison.

Bullet : .456 220gr. Lee Cast Conical, lubed w/ 50/50 Beeswax & crisco
30gr. vol. FFFG Goex
Remington #11 caps
Chrono was 18' from muzzle.
718 fps. AVG.
251 ft. lbs. AVG.
79 ES.

Conciddering that this is what many during the War of Northern Aggression was possibly using out of the full sized 8" barreled NMA's & that the projectile is 98% pure lead so expansion is more than likely this would be a very nasty pistol load.

[Bryan Austin]

I can give ya some ballistics for my lil Pietta Mew Model Army w/ 5.5" barrel as a comparrison.

Bullet : .456 220gr. Lee Cast Conical, lubed w/ 50/50 Beeswax & crisco
30gr. vol. FFFG Goex
Remington #11 caps
Chrono was 18' from muzzle.
718 fps. AVG.
251 ft. lbs. AVG.
79 ES.

Conciddering that this is what many during the War of Northern Aggression was possibly using out of the full sized 8" barreled NMA's & that the projectile is 98% pure lead so expansion is more than likely this would be a very nasty pistol load.

This is basicly what I was thinking with soft lead. Especialy if the ft'lbs was more around 600.

[Fiddler Green]

One factor that no one's metioned is how the bullet effects the "Knock down Power" of the round. Yes, that little, 55 grain,  M109 bullet will bounce around in a body and do lots of damage. It has lots of muzzle energy. But, sometimes it goes right through. That's a bad thing. First, it means it's taking energy passed the target, second, (and this is really important in 99.9% of all defensive shootings) it's carrying that energy on to points unknown: like the wall to your kids room.

The trick is to leave all the energy INSIDE the traget. For that, John Moses Browning developed on of the best cartridges of all time: the .45 ACP. Yes, you can duplicate it with other .45's but, to me, it's just the right gun.

BP for home defense? Great, so after two shots, in the hall, at night, you can't see what your shooting at. Is he down? Is he pulling out his Saturday night special. Did your wife just come around the cornrer to see what's going on?

I love shooting BP as much as the next guy, as a matter of fact, probably more so. But, when I'm "Abroad" I carry a modern gun loaded with modern powder. That's how I got to be 57 and that's how I'm going to get to be 65; someday.


Bruce

[Bryan Austin]

One factor that no one's metioned is how the bullet effects the "Knock down Power" of the round. Yes, that little, 55 grain,  M109 bullet will bounce around in a body and do lots of damage. It has lots of muzzle energy. But, sometimes it goes right through. That's a bad thing. First, it means it's taking energy passed the target, second, (and this is really important in 99.9% of all defensive shootings) it's carrying that energy on to points unknown: like the wall to your kids room.

The trick is to leave all the energy INSIDE the traget. For that, John Moses Browning developed on of the best cartridges of all time: the .45 ACP. Yes, you can duplicate it with other .45's but, to me, it's just the right gun.

BP for home defense? Great, so after two shots, in the hall, at night, you can't see what your shooting at. Is he down? Is he pulling out his Saturday night special. Did your wife just come around the cornrer to see what's going on?

I love shooting BP as much as the next guy, as a matter of fact, probably more so. But, when I'm "Abroad" I carry a modern gun loaded with modern powder. That's how I got to be 57 and that's how I'm going to get to be 65; someday.


Bruce

Yeah, that is what I am refering to "Knock Down" and wanting the lead to remain inside the target for safety of others around the target....self defense I'm talking about this time.

As fars as Black Powder....nah, that was in a separate paragraph and I just wanted to know the info.
I use a Ruger 9mm for home because thats all I have other than the wife's 38 and 380 and I keep my 44-40 someplace special but could get to it. I do use my 44-40 with smokless loads for outside the home becuase again, thats all I have and it has a good knock down punch simular to the ACP at close range and better than the 9mm as well as I am much better with my 44-40 than the 9mm. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the 45 ACP the same as the 45 Colt with shorter brass? Also depending on the bullet design itself?

45 Colt
255 gr Lead SWC 961 ft/s 523 ft·lbf

45 ACP
200 gr Speer Gold Dot JHP +P 1,080 ft/s 518 ft·lbf

44-40
200 gr lead 1,190 ft/s 628 ft·lbf 

[Fiddler Green]

Yeah, that is what I am refering to "Knock Down" and wanting the lead to remain inside the target for safety of others around the target....self defense I'm talking about this time.

As fars as Black Powder....nah, that was in a separate paragraph and I just wanted to know the info.
I use a Ruger 9mm for home because thats all I have other than the wife's 38 and 380 and I keep my 44-40 someplace special but could get to it. I do use my 44-40 with smokless loads for outside the home becuase again, thats all I have and it has a good knock down punch simular to the ACP at close range and better than the 9mm as well as I am much better with my 44-40 than the 9mm. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the 45 ACP the same as the 45 Colt with shorter brass? Also depending on the bullet design itself?

45 Colt
255 gr Lead SWC 961 ft/s 523 ft·lbf

45 ACP
200 gr Speer Gold Dot JHP +P 1,080 ft/s 518 ft·lbf

44-40
200 gr lead 1,190 ft/s 628 ft·lbf 

Wow! A .45 ACP at 1,080 Fps?!? That's optomistic! I like the subsonic, 250 grain, XTP loads for "varmints" but I've really only ever used the standard, Military issue, 230 grain. And, it worked just fine.

Bruce

[Bryan Austin]

What about the ACP cylinder in a 45 Colt clone SAA? Any balistics for this yet? I got some reloads a while back and gave them to a friend. They would not work in an auto....loaded too light. He poped out the lead and reloaded them for his auto.