Re-post: Some reproduction 19th century side knife pics & supporting info

['Monterrey' Jack Brass]

All,

There have been some general posts on this forum of late inquiring on 19th century knives, appearance, sheaths, etc. Chuck Burrows recently posted an excellent thread (thread: Period Knives - Researching the Subject) on documentation and source info. St Geo has also re-posted some of his past excellent period reference data toward this effort. This is applaudable and helps to keep us all on track, it's best to be informed before spending hard-earned samolians on knives & associated and research is the key.

In that spirit I brought this old post 'back to the top' of this forum for a brief spell. The knives detailed in this old post are only a small sampling of some of the era, though the info here may offer general documentation to those interested in such. It is, indeed, old info but still may still have something to offer.

Brass  

p.s. Now it's time for me to get back to lurking and looking for posts here that shed new light and help us all. Good show.


[posts from original thread follow]
All,

St Geo. has done a great thing in starting this forum. Now the trick is to meet his intent on posting 19th century knife/cutlery information, research, and sources. The focus here is on the basic side knife and my audience is the guy who's looking to get a reasonably authentic and moderately priced reproduction.

When you see a side knife and scabbard on one's belt how do you know if it's really proper to the old west era? I've seen quality new-made side knives and scabbards which are impressive and functional works of art but I'm often left wondering if such are at all based on original examples, shown in any period images or other primary sources. Hopefully this forum can be of assistance in wading through the details with liberal doses of primary documentation on styling queues, construction, etc to separate fact from fiction - not simply the use of historic conjecture, general statements, or 'if they coulda made it this way they woulda...'. Arming yourself with knowledge will make your procurement of a proper reproduction side knife easier to do and get right the first time around.

My knife purchases are premised on ensuring a reproduction is as close as possible to a documented, period example. Toward that end the following repro knives and scabbards have provenance to an original or documentation supporting them in some measure. Such information is listed by each picture below. Perhaps this information can assist those who'd like to get a reasonably priced and accurate reproduction knife. I have no connection to the suppliers listed below. And, though I do like many of their products, not all of their stuff is 100% period correct so approach with the usual caution.

If you do your research before buying you can't go wrong. If you're keen on period knife info for your library a couple of excellent reference books are The Bowie Knife: Unsheathing an American Legend by N. Flayderman (2004) and the Heritage of English Knives by D. Hayden-Wright (2008). And if you're lucky enough to find the out-of-print The Antique Bowie Knife Book by B. Adams (1990) for under a $100 consider buying it as used copies are now selling for upward of several hundred dollars.

YMH&OS,

Brass

Knife & scabbard maker: CAS Iberia 'Historical Bowies Collection' (blade 8 & 3/4"). Oil finish belt throg by G. Schultz
Source material: Photo of original Sheffield knife & scabbard pictured in The Antique Bowie Knife Book from article "Bowies on a Budget", Knife World Vol 31, #5, 2005. Original scabbard throg type pictured in circa 1861-65 ferrotype page 160 The Bowie Knife: Unsheathing an American Legend by N. Flayderman (2004)



Knife & scabbard maker: CAS Iberia 'Historical Bowies Collection' (blade 8")
Source material: Illustration & info with pinned slab stag handle knife shown on page 66 James Bown & Son Enterprise Gun Works Headquarters for Sporting Goods and Ammunition of all Kinds, catalogue (1876) and photo of similar original Sheffield knife on page 287 Heritage of English Knives by D. Hayden-Wright (2008)



Knife & scabbard maker: CAS Iberia 'Historical Bowies Collection' (blade 8")
Source material: Photo of similar original J. Chevalier solid stag metal-capped handled knife shown on page 348 The Bowie Knife: Unsheathing an American Legend by N. Flayderman (2004)



Knife & scabbard maker: Atlanta Cutlery (blade 9"). Oil finish belt throg by G. Schultz
Source material: Circa 1874 ferrotype showing curved cylindrical metal-capped knife handle pictured page 220 and circa 1870-75 ferrotype showing same on page 313 Hunting the American West: The Pursuit of Big Game for Life, Profit, and Sport 1800-1900 by R. Rattenbury (2008). Original scabbard throg type pictured on page 208 The Peacemakers: Arms and Adventure in the American West by R. Wilson (1992)



Knife & scabbard maker: Atlanta Cutlery (blade 10"). Oil-finish belt throg by G. Schultz
Source material: Photo of original Sheffield knife, scabbard & scabbard throg page 363 and knife in belt pictured in period Civil War era ferrotype page 127 The Bowie Knife: Unsheathing an American Legend by N. Flayderman (2004)



Unknown knife maker (blade 6"). All-leather oil finish scabbard by G. Schultz
Source material: Photo of similar original Sheffield knife with three-pinned bone slab handle on page 90 The Bowie Knife: Unsheathing an American Legend by N. Flayderman (2004). Examples of raised-blade scabbard shown in circa 1879 ferrotype page 119 The Peacemakers: Arms and Adventure in the American West by R. Wilson (1992), shown in an 1880s ferrotype or albumen print page 186 The Bowie Knife: Unsheathing an American Legend by N. Flayderman (2004), and shown in an 1887 ferrotype or albumen print photograph page 167 Packing Iron: Gunleathers of the Old West by R. Rattenbury (1993)



Knife & scabbard maker: CAS Iberia 'Historical Bowies Collection' (top blade 8 3/4", bottom blade 7 1/2")
Top repro patterned on knife by A. Hunter of Newark, New Jersey, an original specimen of this knife is captured in an ACW era ferrotype stuck in the belt of a Federal officer on page 327 The Bowie Knife: Unsheathing an American Legend, by of Flayderman. Bottom repro patterned on c1840s knife by B. Pradel of New Orleans, Louisiana

[Dr. Bob]

Monterrey Jack,

Great info!!!      I could go for a couple of those.

[Angel_Eyes]

Hi Guys,
    I live about 20 miles from Sheffield, England and am ashamed to say that it has never crossed my mind to find out if any cutler is still producing comparable knives.

I will endeavor to rectify this lapse, watch this space!

AE

[St. George]

A most excellent post - speaking directly to my intent.

There's nothing wrong with drop-point hunters, gut-hook skinners and stacked-leather washers - on modern knives, but they they have no place here, since they didn't exist within the indicated time frame.

'Woulda if They Coulda' isn't an issue - if they couldn't - they didn't.

As pictured above, there are too many 'good' knives out there that do meet the time frame, and there are great knifemakers making even more historically-accurate versions, so we'll concentrate on those.

Again, thanks for an excellent, informative post.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Angel Eyes;  (I really like your name now.)

I pinched the following list from one of St. George's other posts.  How many of these makers still exist?  Have any of the marks survived with any successors? I seem to recall "IXL" being used on Sheffield knives, at least about 50 years ago. I had a repro skean dhu with a rosewood handle, Sheffield made, I think "William Rogers", with the phrase "I CUT MY WAY" on the blade.

"MAJOR MANUFACTURERS of IMPORTED FIXED BLADE KNIVES

SHEFFIELD

Joseph Allen & Sons (NON-XLL)
James Burnand & Sons (Indian, Self Defence)
W. & S. Butcher (Wade & Butcher)
Christopher Johnson & Co. (CJ in flag)
A. J. Jordan (A.A.A.1)
S. & J. Kitchin, (Snake)
Lockwood Bros. (C+X, Cross L)
Joseph Rodgers & Sons (Star & Cross)
I. Wilson (Peppercorn & Diamond)
Geo. Wostenholm & Son (I*XL)"

[The Elderly Kid]

Time frame is also important when choosing a side knife for your impression. The really huge Bowies are characteristic of the 1830s-50s, then they died out as the 6-shooter became the preferred weapon. I don't know of a single postwar photograph showing someone wearing one. Knives of Bowie style were still made, but they shrank to hunting knife size; 8" or less. It's tempting to wear one of the big knives with your 1870s rig, but not period correct unless your persona is a hardcore old-timer who sticks with his prewar armament. Both Museum Replicas and Hanwei Forge feature a good assortment of thrse moderate-sized side knives along with the big ones. I have the Hanwei Vicksburg and it would go well with a postwar impression, and Museum Replicas sells a "Western Boot Knife," a little Bowie with a 5"-6" blade that's probably very much like what you'd see on a cowboy's belt.

['Monterrey' Jack Brass]

Elderly Kid –

Your assessment is something I intuitively agree with. However, I'm thus far unable to locate primary or even solid secondary documentation to support the correlation with revolvers and knife blade size. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, just that I haven't been able to find it. Again, I agree with you in principle and am looking for the info to prove it but I cannot make that case with the information I have available at this point.

Personally I can see a 6 inch blade being far more useful and utilitarian than a long blade on a large knife in any application I'd need. Also, the definition of how 'big' is 'big' comes to mind. Additionally not all side knives (bowies/toothpicks/daggars/butchers/etc) in the 1840s-50s were massive or had extraordinarily long blades. On the contrary some originals pictured in the Flayderman bowie book and the Hayden-Wright book are almost delicate in appearance and have various blade lengths.

It does appear that some handle styles and decorative elements had a sort of lifespan over time though overall blade length and width is open to interpretation, again – how 'big' is 'big'. Perhaps as much in the 1860s-1880s the purpose for having the knife, personal preference & whim, region, culture, price/availability, etc dictated a person's knife selection or perhaps narrowed it – at least these could be considerations. I'm not a 'big bowie' guy in general but like accurate reproductions whether a Searles, Rodgers, Chevalier, etc - large, medium or small. Please share your thoughts and if you have any documentation regarding revolver technology and side knife size correlation I'd very much like to know it too.

The following neither supports or negates a connection with weapons technology influencing side knife size or blade length, though it does support that an average length for a knife from the sources & associated dates below falls into the 7" range. This is interesting in and of itself. Here is a small sample of commercially available side knife blade length options (no widths indicated in the references) from a few period catalogs:

1871 J. H. Johnston Great Western Gun Works: Side knife blade lengths from 5"- 8"
1874 P. Powell & Son: Side knife blade lengths from 5"- 7"
1875 P. Powell & Son: Side knife blade lengths from 5"- 7"
1876 James Bown & Son Enterprise Gun Works: Side Knife blade lengths from 6"- 10"
1879 Pribyl Brothers: Side knife blade lengths from 5"- 9"
1881 Bridgeport Gun Implement Co: Side knife blade lengths from 4"- 9"
1881 J. H. Johnston Great Western Gun Works: Side knife blade lengths from 6"- 10"
c1882 A. G. Spaulding & Bros: Side knife blade lengths from 6"- 8"
1882 J. H. Johnston Great Western Gun Works: Side knife blade lengths from 6"- 10"
1883 Edw. K. Tryon Jr & Co: Side knife blade lengths from 5"- 9"
1883 G. W. Turner & Ross: Side knife blade lengths from 5"- 8"
1883 Hodgkins & Haigh: Side knife blade lengths from 5"- 9"
1884 John Russell Cutlery Co: Side knife blade lengths from 5"- 10"
1886 John P. Moore: Side knife blade lengths from 5"- 9"
1886 Peck & Snyder: Side knife blade lengths from 5"- 10"
1887 E. Remington & Sons: Side knife blade lengths from 6"- 8"
1890 John P. Lovell Arms Co: Side knife blade lengths from 5"- 9"
1895 Montgomery Ward & Co: Side knife blade lengths from 6"- 7"
1897 Sears, Roebuck & Co: Side knife blade lengths from 6"- 7"
1902 Sears, Roebuck & Co: Side knife blade lengths from 6"- 8"

YMH&OS,

Brass

[The Elderly Kid]

It's difficult to cite sources on this subject since so little was written about it at the time. We mostly have to fall back on period drawings and, later, photographs. The "big" Bowies were a fad of the 1830s-50s (by "big" I mean 10" or longer) though as pointed out there are plenty of specimens much smaller. They were used enough in brawls that state legislatures passed laws against sale and carry of the bowie knife. They were also popular gifts and it may be that many of the spectacular specimens in museums were presentation pieces and were never carried, much less used. If one still has its pressed-paper sheath, that is almost certainly the case. In the late '40s-early'50s the first practical belt revolvers appeared and from that time the Bowie seems to have waned in popularity. As long as rifles and pistols were single-shot a backup weapon was a must, but people may have felt that they could settle their difficulties with 5 or 6 shots without recourse to a blade. There was a revival for the Civil War. We see countless photos of young men draped with muskets and bayonets, holding a revolver in one hand and a huge Bowie knife in the other, trying to look fierce (they were mosty teenagers, after all), but we rarely see those knives in camp photos later in the war. As Robert E. Lee gently chided his overarmed young lions: "I think you will find a musket and bayonet and forty rounds of ammunition quite sufficient burden." Pictures of Missouri Bushwhackers show them carrying their Bowies right through the war, and there is no doubt that these were considered an essential part of a man's armament.
After the war, I have only seen small hunting knives on men's belts. There is the famous photo of Hickock in buckskins with a ong knife in his belt, but since it's thrust through the belt without a scabbard, it may well be a photographer's prop. There is also a less savory factor in the rejection of the knife as a weapon: racism. In the latter part of the 19th century, the knife was not seen as a "white man's weapon." Its use was attributed to Mexicans and nonwhites in general. For whatever reason, the knife did not return as an esteemed weapon again until WWII.

['Monterrey' Jack Brass]

All,

For those who posted to this thread thanks for your interest and comments. In closing, here are some considerations that get to the point of initiating this post: things to think about for a guy who wants to get a reasonably authentic and priced reproduction side knife.

What kind of knife is for you? If your impression warrants a knife, what kind should it be – in broad terms a clasp knife might better fit the bill for your needs (St Geo - methinks we might need a new thread on this subject). There were various knives to fit various tasks, what does your impression/s warrant for a knife? The best answer in deciding this is research for your overall impression/s and knife-specific research on period styling queues, construction, materials, etc of both knife and scabbard from reputable references. Then, when adequately equipped with knowledge, go forth and do good things for historical accuracy and your impression/s by getting the perfect knife for you.

How big a knife is too big? Though blade width and length are subjective, as both long and short types co-existed in parallel, there is some information for your impression/s and needs that can be of assistance in this thread. A few references from period catalogs – see my post further up in this thread – point to a side knife blade from 5-10 inches being commercially available from the 1870s-1890s. This blade length survey is very limited in scope but still can be of assistance in honing your search for a good reproduction side knife. The long, massive bowies as seen in many CW era photographs, according to Norman Flayderman in his The Bowie knife: Unsheathing an American Legend, were perhaps a characteristic of the war era. Why were some of those bowies in the photos (now in museums & collections) so frickin' huge..? Opinions vary, though such long/large knives might have traced their martial lineage to the sword bayonet for some rifled muskets in fashion during the era (pages 218 and 223-24). Such huge/long knives were popular early in the war, most especially in the South according to Flayderman, and perhaps were as much an implement of fashion (page 200) as a popular moral-boosting martial fad (page 206). This somewhat general information might also prove helpful in your search by avoiding knives that are, perhaps, too large and impractical for a post-Civil War era civilian impression as the limited evidence here points to massive bowies' popularity being a relatively brief one.

What was the point of a side knife? Though Flayderman sprinkles his book with excellent and insightful information on this throughout, there are a few interesting points he makes regarding the side knife as both a primary weapon and/or a back-up weapon to a firearm. He starts out with the flintlock era and carries this trend through the age of the percussion revolver and even up to the time of early cartridge revolvers – both small and larger calibres. Though this information is arguably sparse, Flayderman makes the case using a few solid primary references in support of the side knife remaining a reliable and common weapon for self defense even along side the revolver (page 487).

Regarding my posts in this thread: I'm sticking only to what I can support with references, refraining from sharing opinions & conjecture, and not making general unsupported statements. I'm a huge supporter of letting the facts as we understand them stand alone. In closing, I hope my posts here can be of some value to a fellow in the market for an authentic reproduction side knife.

YMH&OS,

Brass

[Dusty Ed]

Howdy Angel Eyes
Try John Nowill & Sons Shefield England
Dusty Ed

[Skeeter Lewis]

Apparently Texas Rangers had to carry a knife on their cartridge belt at one time. There's a picture of Ira Aten in 1887 with a fairly big Bowie on page 167 of 'Packing Iron' and another picture from the same year of another Ranger with a much daintier poniard on page 95 of 'Cowboys & The Trappings of the Old West'. Then as now, you make your choice.

That info is interesting, Jack. Seven inches seems to be the median.

[Delmonico]

Good information Jack.

As for the Texas Rangers and their knives, I have noticed that the majority of pictures of 19th Century men carrying sheath knives are Texas Rangers if there is information on them.

[Messerist]

I wonder if the Rangers had to have an "official" photo.  Maybe that accounts for all the surviving photos of them with their accoutrement.  Just a thought.

[Delmonico]

I wonder if the Rangers had to have an "official" photo.  Maybe that accounts for all the surviving photos of them with their accoutrement.  Just a thought.

I've never heard that they did, but any photographers that could get a company of Rangers together was assured that he'd make money with the prints.  I would guess most if not all of them would want a copy.

['Monterrey' Jack Brass]

Del – you're on to something regarding Texas Ranger group photos with side knives being so prevalent, I've noticed that too. I did a quick scan of James B. Gillett's personal memoirs "Six Years with the Texas Rangers: 1875-1881" (published in 1921, reprinted in 1976 by Bison Books) and found a side knife reference on page 21. The following is from the author, a veteran of the Frontier Battalion:

"For arms, the ranger after 1877 carried a Winchester rifle or carbine, a Colt's .45 revolver, and a bowie knife. Two cartridge belts, one for the Winchester and one for revolver ammunition, completed his equipment, and thus armed he was ready to mount and ride."

Photo below of Gillett during his time as a Texas Ranger clearly shows his personal side knife



Brass

[Delmonico]

Jack, another place where you will see knives on folks are on soldiers out on campaign or about to go out.  What I am refering to is photos that are not done in studio's with the painted canvas back drops. Now in these photos you will see all kinds of knives, often very large knives that almost run out of the "Bowie" class and become more like a Roman short sword.  I don't put much faith in these photos to show what folks carried, simply because a lot of the gear is studio props and often if they can be traced to the source they are even taken in studios back east.

[Delmonico]

I've been going through pictures in my files and I sure am not going to say that it didn't happen, I know better than to say never, but for the life of me the only pictures I can find of anyone with a belt knife are either Texas Rangers, soldiers or they are plainly studio pictures, with the exception of the picture of Charley Meeks in that theard I posted on the 1886 belt knife. 

I'm sure if anyone has any to offer they will post them, I will keep looking, but I'd say almost all men in the period carried pocket knives.

[Marshal Deadwood]

I wonder where all thoes Sheffield knives were going ?

MD

[Delmonico]

I wonder where all thoes Sheffield knives were going ?

MD

Don't know but they were sure not showing up on belts in photos.  Since almost all them big oversize knives I've seen are in pretty good shape for their age and almost all the pocket knives are well worn and the blades are worn out from honing, I have a good guess.

['Monterrey' Jack Brass]

Del - I found some of photos of side knives being worn in Hunting the American West: The Pursuit of Big Game for Life, Profit, and Sport 1800-1900 by R. Rattenbury (2008). However, I know what you're aiming at regarding knives worn for a purpose vs. knives worn for a photograph. Having said that, and my being a nascent wet plate photographer newbie, I can say that making wet plate photographs is inconvenient and rather involved at best and I can only guess how many unstaged 'good shots' were not only necessarily missed but entirely overlooked as being impossible to make back in the day. So the idea of not capturing the era real-time, to include your average joe doing something menial or monumental - with or without a side knife - is a fact to me based on the challenges I've had just getting my friggin' wet plate set up to work much less work well. Regarding photography of the era being convenient: forget about it!

Del & M.D. - Earlier in this post is a quick survey of commercially available knife blade lengths from a limited number of period catalogs. Though far from comprehensive, due to the limited catalogs sample surveyed, the implication is there were a lot of side knives for sale during our time period and (assuming being danergous...) I'd have to assume there was a market for them though perhaps not something commonly photographed. Food for thought.

Brass