Re-post: Some reproduction 19th century side knife pics & supporting info

[Delmonico]

Good thoughts, however since so many of them bigger knives you see show so little use, I wonder how many were bought by folks who thought that is what they needed and then found out a smaller knife was far more usefull.  A good example my brother at the age of 18 bought that largest Buck sheth knife for his first deer hunting season.  He wore it all season, even field dressed a deer with it.  Next year it was regulated to the pc\ick-up and was used in camp to split the rib cage and pelvis before hanging.  A few years later it was replaced by a much more useful saw.  Last time I seen it the thing was laying on his dresser in our hunting cabin and hasn't been moved in years.  Another food for thought.

[DUKE DEADEYE NUKEM]

 

[GunClick Rick]

[KidTerico]

GCR thats a knife to be proud of you lucky son of a gun. KT

['Monterrey' Jack Brass]

GCR - That is a beauty of a knife you posted and I'm keen to know more about it. In the spirit of this thread, and a big reason why it was started, please share your source material on it (ref snippet from my initial post: "When you see a side knife and scabbard on one's belt how do you know if it's really proper to the old west era? I've seen quality new-made side knives and scabbards which are impressive and functional works of art but I'm often left wondering if such are at all based on original examples, shown in any period images or other primary sources."). Though this thread has taken interesting turns &c it's really all about the documentation if such can be found.

Thanks much for sharing the picture of your knife and please be careful with that bugger - she's a beauty and looks like a sharp one too!

Brass

[GunClick Rick]

Well i'm gettin closer

['Monterrey' Jack Brass]

GCR – If that butcher knife would have been a five-pin hilt type with a more 'civilized' looking scabbard you'd win me over for sure. You are, indeed, getting closer...!

Have a good one,

Brass

[GunClick Rick]

 

[Dr. Bob]

Now that's a great looking OLD knife! 

[ChuckBurrows]

GCR – If that butcher knife would have been a five-pin hilt type with a more 'civilized' looking scabbard you'd win me over for sure...
Have a good one,
Brass

MJB - Not all butchers, skinners, etc of the period had 5 or 6 pins. John Russell & Co, maker of the famed Green River, for instance offered several models with just three iron pins in a straight line pattern. The earliest known one owned by the company is circa 1844, it's a half tang with 3 iron rivets in a straight pattern - the third pin is just through the two wood slabs.
Here's a page from the 1865 Russell catalog - as you cans see some are 5 pin and some are 3 pin
http://www.manifest-history.org/1stCaliforniaInfantryRecreated/guidelines/pictures/1865Knives.jpg

Here's a PDF with three pages from an 1884 knife catalog including a page of:
1)  J Ward/Atlas Works - with 3 pin handles of cocoa (coca bola) and red wood (rosewood )
2) J Russell - 3 pin and 2 pin redwood (rosewood) handles and cast pewter bolsters and end caps
http://www.manifest-history.org/1stCaliforniaInfantryRecreated/guidelines/pictures/1884Knives.pdf

As for the more "civilized" scabbard - well lots and lots of NDNz, mixed bloods, and even "white" scouts wore less than "civilized" scabbards. While I can't say the one shown is an exact copy of an original it's well within the design/style parameters of NDN sheaths of the 1860-1890 period....
And FYI - while I don't personally find it offensive (I'm of mixed blood heritage and most definitely not politically correct), the use of the term "civilized" in the way you used it (and I know no offense was meant) would certainly be taken as being offensive by some, perhaps even many, of my NDN friends and neighbors (I live surrounded by the So Ute Rez and have friends on several others) - it's a matter of different civilizations and a matter of different taste in things........now if you'd said more of a "white eyes" style....

['Monterrey' Jack Brass]

GCR - You have, good sir, indeed won me over. That is a fine example of a pin handled butcher you posted.

Mssr Burrows - Well met and your points are well received. As for "white eyes", I almost deposited my sip of coffee on the keyboard. Was a great chuckle this Sunday morning and it was appreciated. Touche mon ami...!

To all - This post has surpassed my original intent regarding relatively inexpensive commercially available period correct reproduction side knives and I value your inputs. This is the sort of discourse I believe the good St Geo is striving for on this forum. I certainly have appreciated all of your comments, inputs, and information here and because of you this post is more informative and certainly not as dry as it started out to be.

I remain, your most humble & ob't svt,

Brass

[St. George]

Indeed.

This forum works best when it stays on point.

I'm away from my references at the moment, but when I return - I'll list those manufacturers of butchers and skinners I'd spoken of.

The neat thing about those is the fact that the originals are 'everywhere' and pretty inexpensive, since they're so utilitarian and plain.

They're especially prevalent in those cities that were once tied to large-scale stockyards operations.

I remember a little tid-bit about the number of pins, too.

Often, a hardware supplier would want to include good-quality utility skinning and butcher knives in its offering, but didn't actually manufacture cutlery on its own.

They'd contract with better-known manufacturers, who would do what they could to supply the piece, but with little 'embellishment', so as to keep the wholesale price down.

Often, this was the use of two pins/rivets instead of three.

That's why you'll see identical blade shapes, but little, if any maker's markings.

Keep your eyes peeled - knives like these pop up at garage sales, estate sales and every-other-kind-of-sales.

Good Hunting!

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Marshal Deadwood]

Rick,,I have one erriely just like your Russell. Came from the Texas Panhandle.

[GunClick Rick]

I can't take credit for the 5 pinner i found it on ebay under antique knives.The others are mine though and i never knew until yesterday they made them with more pins,will have to get one now.See how you guys learn me???

Marshall i found mine in a local antique shop and got it becuase of that blade..15.00 i sur like those old carbide(?) blades now..

[Delmonico]

Here's one I picked up years ago at a thrift store, the handles are the originals:





No sheath for this one, you can see though it gets used:



That steak is cut from a wholesale cut.

[GunClick Rick]

Oh yea i like that knife I'm real fond of filets too Danged if that don't look good there Cooky~You remind me of my old councler when i was a kid,he cooked in a dutch oven too.We would have homemade meatloaf wrapped in aluminum wrap cooked over and in hot coals,sassyfrass tea,when bible study was over so was the devil food cake in the dutch oven.When bedtime came ole Dale would pop off his wood leg and lean against a rock and jump in his pick-up bed and snore away~great memories!!!

[GunClick Rick]

If i ever get to travel again i wanna go to Delmonicos chuck wagon...

[Delmonico]

That Sheffield works well for cutting up homemade noodles also.



I guess to me a knife that has no real use, is just scrap steel with some wood attached, no matter how pretty it is.

[GunClick Rick]

Hey! I resemble that noodle..Wished you were out here Delmonico,we would hook up with the Sons of the San Juaquin and do a video..I'm goin down today to the local meat market that just closed to see if i can snag some old knives they have hangin on the wall.Never know unless ya ask,been there forever,local icon,now closing,very sad...