Making the leap to try some Trip 7

Steel Horse Bailey · February 11, 2009, 09:49:49 PM

Howdy, all!

Well, the local Wally World has a good price on Hodgdon's Triple Seven BP substitute ... I paid $15 (+ tx.) for a pound. I have some commercial hard-cast 250 gr. RNFP projectiles that I WAS going to use with the can of Trail Boss I got as a door-prize at the 2008 NCOWS Nationals.

Problem is, I really prefer to shoot BP. Now, 777 isn't true BP, but I've heard so MUCH good about its' performance as a BP sub so I decided to give it a whirl, so to speak. Sooo ... this satisfies my need to use these hard-cast bullets AND still help smoke up the range!

I went to Hodgdon's site and made mental note of their instructions: [sic] 'no compression more than .100" with best results gotten with bullet just touching the powder, clean-up with water, load by volume, etc. etc.'

I plan to drop the powder 'thru a drop tube as if I were loading FFg BP.

Do any of you have any suggestions beyond what is on the website? This is the FFg granulation. It should do just fine with hard-cast, right? No special lube needed, right?

Wish me luck - I don't get to experiment very often.

hellgate · February 11, 2009, 10:24:22 PM

Yer gonna notice a difference. The recoil will be a little sharper, no sweet sulfur smell (I feel at home smelling BP but wonder what kind of noxious gasses are in the 777 smoke), and just a dusting of fouling in the barrel. I do a moose milk "pull through" or two then a dry patch pull through before a cleaning rod and a couple of patches after the match.

Pettifogger · February 11, 2009, 11:32:41 PM

Drop tubing 777 is a complete waste of time. Just dump it in your powder measure and set it to dump enough powder to touch the bottom of the bullet. Seat bullet, crimp. That's it. Nothing hard or exotic. Just use plain old water and you'll be fine.

Leo Tanner · February 12, 2009, 12:29:29 AM

I started with triple 7. Yer gonna hate the smell it leaves behind. Aint right. It does clean up nice with windshield fluid or water and any BP lube seems ta work fine. I still have about half a pound of 3F here that I'll use in a pinch. 15 bucks a pound is a great deal, it's 29 over here. That outta be worth the weird odor you'll get on yer hands.

Leo Tanner · February 12, 2009, 12:47:32 AM

Sorry, I shoulda said other than that it loads and shoots the same. It needs not be handled like nitro powder, it's still volume an not weight. Again, ya got a hell of a deal.

Missouri Marshal · February 12, 2009, 07:04:39 AM

Well it may not be real BP and some of the hardcore BP shooters may frown upon it but;

It's easy to load, I just run it though my progressive press the same as smokeless. Again it is mesured by VOLUME not weight.

You can use any bullet/lube you want/have;

Does not foul the guns up like REAL BP does. I have shot two matches, back to back, 12 stages total, without cleaning anything. There was no noticable differance in acuracy or performance of my guns. If your guns will work with REAL BP they will sing with 777.

Cleans up very easily. You can use just water but I use moosemilk. I don't like the ideal of using just water on a gun but I have done it.

IT MAKES MORE SMOKE THAN REAL BP!

The only negative I see is that you don't get the fire like REAL BP.

Just my experiance. We've been using it for about 2 years now in our rifles and pistols and I wouldn't think of using anything else.

Pony Racer · February 12, 2009, 07:20:36 AM

MM - we here in the VA State Black Powder Posse - still see you and the Missus as Darksiders just the same!!

I prefer real BP for all the reasons of the Boom, smell, fire etc etc etc...; however, if the price is right I will use subs - especially in the shotguns.

At 15.00 a lb if I didn't have 5lbs of ffg APP sitting around, along with my Scheutzen FFG and FFFG supply I would snag some.

Wahoooooooooooooo shooting Black and ain't going back!!

PR

Dirty Brass · February 12, 2009, 08:15:33 AM

I've been experimenting with T7 in my RM ll and my OT, 44 Spcl., and 45 LC respectively. I've gotten great groups out of the 44, but he 45 still seemed a little stout for an OT, so I'm going to reduce some loads for that gun. Cleaning is easy, and once I measured by volume and weighed it on a scale, I have no problem running it through a progressive powder measure/drop tube. I have a thread on what I've done, along with some pics of bullet groups - this link.....

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,24537.0.html

Fingers McGee · February 12, 2009, 10:45:46 AM

Quote from: hellgate on February 11, 2009, 10:24:22 PM
Yer gonna notice a difference. The recoil will be a little sharper, no sweet sulfur smell (I feel at home smelling BP but wonder what kind of noxious gasses are in the 777 smoke), and just a dusting of fouling in the barrel.

Quote from: Pettifogger on February 11, 2009, 11:32:41 PM
Drop tubing 777 is a complete waste of time. Just dump it in your powder measure and set it to dump enough powder to touch the bottom of the bullet. Seat bullet, crimp. That's it. Nothing hard or exotic. Just use plain old water and you'll be fine.

+1 I use 777 as well as BP for my 44-40s Loading and cleanup is easy.

FM

Steel Horse Bailey · February 12, 2009, 11:24:13 AM

Thanks to you all!

hellgate · February 12, 2009, 02:56:53 PM

One thing not mentioned yet: The residue is corrosive to brass. Not nearly so much as APP/Black Canyon but you still need to rinse the brass out at the end of the day. I wait til get home and throw the brass into a 1# coffee can and swirl them in hot water, rinse & swirl again, rinse and dry them. Tumble later. I would not let the fouling sit on the brass frame of a Henry or a 66 for very long. It is a little worse than real BP but not like APP/Pinnacle.

Dirty Brass · February 12, 2009, 07:58:33 PM

Good point. I throw my brass in a jug of water and a little Ivory dish soap and let it soak for a few hours, sloshing it up a bit. Hot water rinse later and tumble. I left some for a couple of days by mistake, and a lot of caked up crud came loose from inside the cases during tumbling later.

Steel Horse Bailey · February 13, 2009, 08:48:25 AM

Quote from: hellgate on February 12, 2009, 02:56:53 PM
One thing not mentioned yet: The residue is corrosive to brass. Not nearly so much as APP/Black Canyon but you still need to rinse the brass out at the end of the day. I wait til get home and throw the brass into a 1# coffee can and swirl them in hot water, rinse & swirl again, rinse and dry them. Tumble later. I would not let the fouling sit on the brass frame of a Henry or a 66 for very long. It is a little worse than real BP but not like APP/Pinnacle.

Quote from: Dirty Brass on February 12, 2009, 07:58:33 PM
Good point. I throw my brass in a jug of water and a little Ivory dish soap and let it soak for a few hours, sloshing it up a bit. Hot water rinse later and tumble. I left some for a couple of days by mistake, and a lot of caked up crud came loose from inside the cases during tumbling later.

Thanks for the hints. Having NO experience with APP, only real BP and Pyrodex, I wasn't very aware of the corrosive-to-brass nature of the stuff [subs]. I always throw my empty brass into a "bath" so I should be good to go there. Same way with my Win 66. (Well, I don't actually throw it in a tub of water, but you know whut I mean!)

It must be the nature of the subs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't 777, APP, etc. a citrus/sugar based powder?

Thanks again, all.

Dirty Brass · February 13, 2009, 03:33:08 PM

Quote from: Steel Horse Bailey on February 13, 2009, 08:48:25 AM

It must be the nature of the subs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't 777, APP, etc. a citrus/sugar based powder?

Thanks again, all.

This is an excerpt from a (Chuck Hawks?) article on Hodgden Triple Seven I ran across....dunno if it's gospel, but it pertains to your question....

In 2002 Hodgdon did it again, introducing their "Triple Seven" loose powder. Triple Seven is apparently an gluconic acid (sugar-based) propellant that is far more efficient than blackpowder or Pyrodex, with corresponding increases in muzzle velocity.

The exact recipe is no doubt hidden away in Chris Hodgdon's secret vault surrounded by a moat full of vicious salt water crocodiles, but carbon-based fuels need, err, carbon to burn. If not charcoal, there are few more economical options than sugar. The problem has always been the carmelization process, where several previous attempts have failed to achieve consistency, but Hodgdon has finally done it right. In no way a "black powder performance substitute," the pressures generated by Triple Seven are greater than the Pyrodex or blackpowder genre products, and so are the muzzle velocities.

Leo Tanner · February 13, 2009, 04:49:57 PM

Ya prolly already looked here, but there is some good info. The MSDS says "other ingrediants are trade secrets" but that there is a way ta get them. The other charts an such are handy.

http://www.hodgdon.com/

Steel Horse Bailey · February 14, 2009, 02:13:44 PM

Thanks fellas. Yep - I went to their website first.

I haven't gotten a chance to load/shoot any yet, but due to the fact that I've gotten such positive responses to my post and I have 500 of these H/C bullets, I back and got 2 more pounds of the stuff!

The fact that it's on sale @ $15/lb. vs. its normal $24.95 helps, too! I wouldn't pay that much for it! Hell, I can get 2 lbs of Goex for the regular price - and for pistols and rifles in NCOWS/GAF/SASS, I don't need the quality off SWISS or the others that much.

I DO want to try some Scheutzen, tho.

Leo Tanner · February 14, 2009, 02:36:19 PM

Enjoy the stuff, just remember that it is still a dirty powder. Some folks get the wrong impression about it. It cleans up easier, but still likes ta cake up while shooting. Specialy in a C&B.

Steel Horse Bailey · February 14, 2009, 02:45:55 PM

Quote from: Leo Tanner on February 14, 2009, 02:36:19 PM
Enjoy the stuff, just remember that it is still a dirty powder. Some folks get the wrong impression about it. It cleans up easier, but still likes ta cake up while shooting. Specialy in a C&B.

Good point.

I've been shootin' the black stuff since the early 70s, so it's not a surprise. I'll pretty much treat it like BP - just with hard-cast 'stead of softer lead. And different lube.

Leo Tanner · February 14, 2009, 03:20:20 PM

Don't wanna side track the thread, but what lube are you going ta use with it? There's lot's of lube discussions on the board, but I'm curious what yer gonna try for the 777.

Steel Horse Bailey · February 14, 2009, 04:48:16 PM

Well, the lube that's on the bullets is my first plan ... unless standard Blue crayon lube isn't right for it. These are Vance bullets.

It's my understanding that, GENERALLY blue lube is somewhat softer lube for smokeyless powders (read: pistols) and red is more high speed. However, I know that ANY color (pretty much) can be added to any lube "recipe." Some smells, too!

As so many come with red lube I don't kow how accurate that is, but around HERE it seems to be the way. Somewhat. Partly. I think.