Custer Historian Interview

[Grapevine Jimmy]

This thread has been extremely informative and interesting. I spent three years in Rapid City while stationed at Ellsworth AFB and unless they have been moved recently, the Black Hills are located in South Dakota, not North Dakota.

GJ

[JohnR]

Yup, there are.  There are also a few that seem not-so-valid.

The author said, "I don't think he was reckless in taking on the entire Indian village himself—There's little doubt in my mind that a disciplined Army regiment of more than 700 men could have routed a force of Sioux and Cheyenne two or three times their size if properly deployed."

The second sentence is probably true -- as far as it goes.  To me, though, the author seems to have glossed over the fact that there were around 5,000 Cheyenne and Sioux warriors facing Custer that day.  Even if he had properly deployed and employed his entire force, that's a little more than 7 to 1.....................

-- Nighteyes

And therein lies the rub which the author also seems to overlook, even though he devotes a major portion of a couple of chapeters to it - such a disciplined Army regiment did not exist in the Army of the West in 1876.  Certainly not the 7th as Custer's top two subordinates (Reno and Benteen) hated him.  Reno had done a poor job in Custer's absence preparing the regiment for this campaign, and Custer himself was eager to get out from under General Terry's command.

Every officer involved in planning and replanning this campaign was guilty of overestimating their own capabilities, based on the condition of this regiment, and underestimating the capability and will of the Lakota and Cheyennes that they were chasing.  That one single failure resulted in Custer AND Crook before him doing everything wrong.  Everything!

[JohnR]

I think Custer would have been fragged in Vietnam. IMHO.

Not likely - Custer was quite popular with many of his officers and most of the enlisted under his command.

[Montana Slim]

The troopers of the Seventh were issued the then-new Model 1873 Springfield Carbine and the equally new Colt Single Action Army.

The Indians had a mixed bag of weaponry - some captured/obsolete military and some civilian.
/quote]

Many captured Indian weapons, including a number used at LBH, are in the collection at Rock Island Arsenal Museum. Some are on loan from the museum to other locations. I've had the fortunate opportunity to handle a few of them myself.

Regards,
Slim

[jrdudas]

I am certainly not an expert on Custer, but I have read a couple of books on his life.  My personal opinion is that he was a reckless glory hound.  Accounts of his adventures during the Civil War almost always include rash and careless behavior when it comes to the welfare of his men.  By rights, it's a wonder that he survived the Civil War.  He seemed to operate on the belief that "bravado" always trumps common sense and logic. 

JR
   

[Fox Creek Kid]

Not likely - Custer was quite popular with many of his officers and most of the enlisted under his command.

Custer was DESPISED & LOATHED by almost all the officers under him who were not in his clique. He ABANDONED Major Joel H. Elliott at the Washita. To know what happened to the soldiers he abandoned scroll down in the following link. The descriptions aren't pretty. 

http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~familyinformation/transcripts/elliott.html

[JohnR]

Custer was DESPISED & LOATHED by almost all the officers under him who were not in his clique. He ABANDONED Major Joel H. Elliott at the Washita. To know what happened to the soldiers he abandoned scroll down in the following link. The descriptions aren't pretty. 

http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~familyinformation/transcripts/elliott.html

I have to disagree based on probably 30 visits to the LBH battlefield and perhaps a dozen references in my personal library.  Unless, of course, you consider his "clique" to include all the officers in his command except Marcus Reno and Frederick Benteen.  Even Benteen accompanied Wier in their vain attempt to reach Custer during the fight.  Historians disagree on whether he "abandoned" Joel Elliot at the Washita.  So did his officers.

Custer has been painted in many different ways by history.  Some things are clear and some are not so clear.  But we all have our opinions, just like belly buttons.

[Fox Creek Kid]

http://law.jrank.org/pages/2594/George-Armstrong-Custer-Court-Martial-1867.html

[Daniel Nighteyes]

But we all have our opinions, just like belly buttons.

An excellent adaptation!  Mine is "just like noses", so I can use the rest of it -- "and most of 'em smell."

[Stillwater]

Other than for the Black Hills having significant spiritual significance to more than just the Lakota, that the Powder River/Yellowstone area was where Sitting Bull, et al, led those who left the Rez, and that the Powder River/Yellowstone area was where their allies the Northern Cheyenne traditionally resided.

BTW, said abrogation of the Fort Laramie Treaty is STILL an item of contention among a surprisingly large portion of Native America, not the least of which being the Lakota.

Aren't you beiing a little biased?

The 1868 treaty was broken by the Indians themselves, within a week of it's being signed.

Bill

[Daniel Nighteyes]

Aren't you beiing a little biased?

The 1868 treaty was broken by the Indians themselves, within a week of it's being signed.

Bill

Biased?  I don't think so.  As for the Indians being the first to break the treaty, your own historical works say otherwise.

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From Wikipedia (text bolded for emphasis):

The Treaty of Fort Laramie (also called the Sioux Treaty of 1868) was an agreement between the United States and the Lakota nation, Yanktonai Sioux, Santee Sioux, and Arapaho signed in 1868 at Fort Laramie in the Wyoming Territory, guaranteeing to the Lakota ownership of the Black Hills, and further land and hunting rights in South Dakota, Wyoming, and Montana. The Powder River Country was to be henceforth closed to all whites. The treaty ended Red Cloud's War.

The treaty includes an article intended to "ensure the civilization" of the Lakota, financial incentives for them to farm land and become competitive, and stipulations that minors should be provided with an "English education" at a "mission building." To this end the U.S. government included in the treaty that white teachers, blacksmiths, a farmer, a miller, a carpenter, an engineer and a government agent should take up residence within the reservation.

Repeated violations of the otherwise exclusive rights to the land by gold prospectors led to the Black Hills War. Migrant workers seeking gold had crossed the reservation borders, in violation of the treaty.

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Also from Wikipedia (test bolded for emphasis; underlining for additional emphasis):

Custer's 1874 Black Hills Expedition was an expedition by United States then-Lieutenant Colonel George Armstrong Custer that set out on July 2, 1874 from modern day Bismarck, North Dakota, which was then Fort Abraham Lincoln in the Dakota Territory, with orders to travel to the previously uncharted Black Hills of South Dakota, look for suitable locations for a fort, find a route to the south west, and to investigate the possibility of gold mining. Ordered to return by August 30, Custer and his unit, the 7th Cavalry, arrived in the Black Hills on July 22, 1874 and set up a camp at the site of the future town of Custer where civilians searched for gold. While Custer and the military units searched for a suitable location for a fort, gold was discovered a creek near his camp, which prompted a mass gold rush which in turn antagonised the Sioux Indians who had been promised the land which they saw as sacred...

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As long as we're discussing this, it is more accurate to refer to "The Fort Laramie Treaties", since there were two.  The first was in 1851.

Again from Wikipedia (text bolded for emphasis):

The Fort Laramie Treaty of 1851 was signed on September 17 between United States treaty commissioners and representatives of the Sioux, Cheyenne, Arapaho, Crow, Shoshone, Assiniboine, Mandan, Hidatsa, and Arikara nations. The treaty sets forth traditional territorial claims of the tribes as between themselves.[2] The Indians guaranteed safe passage for settlers on the Oregon Trail in return for promises of an annuity in the amount of fifty thousand dollars for fifty years. The Native American nations also allowed roads and forts to be built in their territories. The United States Senate ratified the treaty, adding Article 7, to adjust compensation from fifty to ten years, if the tribes accepted the changes. Acceptance from all tribes, with the exception of the Crows, was procured. Several tribes never received the commodities promised as payments. The treaty produced a brief period of peace but was broken by the mass emigration during the Pike's Peak Gold Rush into the territory set aside for the Indians.

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Therefore, unless you have credible historical documentation that says otherwise, my original statement stands.

Regards,

-- Nighteyes

[Stillwater]

Two things need to be said about Benteen and Reno... In fact, neither of them had credibility...

One is, is that they were both alcoholics...

Reno was found more than once, with his canteen filled with whiskey. Reno was cashiered from the Army because of his alcoholism.

Two, Benteen was an alcoholic and a Voyeur. Benteen was courtmartial, discharged from the army, for looking in his commanding officers daughter's bedroom.

When you give credeence to someones story, you have to know ALL of their back ground.

Personally, and this is just my opinion, Reno was unfit for command because of his alcoholism. Benteen was bitter about having Custer placed in command. A command that Benteen wanted.

I think Custer had some personal problems that he hoped would be resolved, by having a great victory over the Sioux and the Cheyenne.

He was courtmartialed. That fact, alone, would have ended any advancement in his military careeer. I think Custer looked at victoriously battling the Sioux and the Cheyenne as a way of re-energizing, or redeeming, his military career. He was in the pursuit of regaining his stars.

What West Point Cadet wouldn't?

Someone said that Custer was hot headed in battle. That is how battles were fought, and won, in his day.

The reason his men liked him was because he led, from the front, not from the rear. Custer had nine horses shot out from under him during the Civil War. Read about Custers actions at Gettysburg. The was the only Union Commander that ever stopped Confederate General J.E.B. Stuart. He stopped Stuart, cold, at the risk of his own life.

When Custers men had to risk their lives, Custer risked his also.

Risking lives, is what happens in war... Ask me how I know that...!

[St. George]

If this thread keeps up in this manner - I'll happily delete it.

Scouts Out!

[Daniel Nighteyes]

If this thread keep up in this manner - I'll happily delete it.

Scouts Out!

St. George, you won't have to delete the thread on my account.  I've said my piece, and I stand behind it.

-- Nighteyes

[Half Moon Tune]

Stillwater, I enjoyed your post, and would agree with what you said. The only thing I might disagree on was I think that it was Major Reno who was caught peeking in the window. The girl shouted "Mother, it's Major Reno!!" Reno had had an interest in this girl, and later claimed he was just a little intoxicated when he happened by her window. He claimed he wasn't being a peeping Tom.

St George, I am new to this forum, so I am still learning the rules, etc. You mentioned that you would delete this thread. What was it that someone did wrong, that would cause you to do this? Not trying to be sarcastic, just trying to know what the limits are.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

St George, I am new to this forum, so I am still learning the rules, etc. You mentioned that you would delete this thread. What was it that someone did wrong, that would cause you to do this? Not trying to be sarcastic, just trying to know what the limits are.

Half Moon Tune, that is a good question.  If I may attempt an answer, there was another post on this thread that has since been deleted.  It was, ah, less than helpful in the discussion at hand.

Regards,

-- Nighteyes

[Half Moon Tune]

Nighteyes, Dear Sir, thank you for your answer. It is much appreciated, as are your posts.  I really enjoy this forum because there are so many with such in depth knowledge. Much more than "Well, I read this book..." I am an amateur historian in that I have read some on a few of the topics and have done some minor research on my own. Still, for the most part quite a few of these folks, you included, have much more knowledge than I do. It makes for enjoyable reading.