Custer Historian Interview

[Fox Creek Kid]

Many interesting points here:

http://www.americanheritage.com/people/articles/web/20080402_Terrible-Glory-George-Armstrong-Custer-James-Donovan-Review-Allen-Barra.shtml

[Daniel Nighteyes]

Yup, there are.  There are also a few that seem not-so-valid.

The author said, "I don't think he was reckless in taking on the entire Indian village himself—There's little doubt in my mind that a disciplined Army regiment of more than 700 men could have routed a force of Sioux and Cheyenne two or three times their size if properly deployed."

The second sentence is probably true -- as far as it goes.  To me, though, the author seems to have glossed over the fact that there were around 5,000 Cheyenne and Sioux warriors facing Custer that day.  Even if he had properly deployed and employed his entire force, that's a little more than 7 to 1.

Custer could only see a small part of the entire encampment from his vantage point. In my estimation he was emboldened by his previous successes -- "Custer's experience consisted of successfully routing a sleeping Cheyenne village of fifty lodges in 1868, and a couple of intense skirmishes against the Sioux on the Yellowstone in 1873." (underlining added for emphasis) -- and made the fatal error of assuming that what he could see was all there was.

And the rest, as they say, is history.

Regards,

-- Nighteyes

[Trailrider]

Howdy, Pards,
So far as the criticism that Custer divided his forces, which I've heard since I was a boy, and that's over a half-century ago, it is based on a false premise.  No, not that dividing his forces was a good thing...it proved the opposite.  BUT IT WAS TACTICAL DOCTRINE AT THE TIME!  Crook did the same thing at the Rosebud Battle a week before and just 23 miles (as the crow flies...about 32 as the roads between LBH and Rosebud battlefields go) Southeast of the LBH site.  The only thing that saved Crook's command from being the real headline story, and Custer's a footnote, is that, fighting the SAME Indians, Crook had about twice as many men (including Indian allies, teamsters, packers, Montana miners and other hangers-on), and the terrain is slightly different.  As it was, Crook's troops expended about 50,000 rounds of ammunition, and inflicted maybe 50 casualties among the Indians, while suffering about twice that KIA and WIA. (Accounts vary, of course.)  But he got fought to a standstill, and had to withdraw down to his base camp.

Custer, Crook, Terry, et al, were more worried about the Indians getting away, that about a pitched battle.  The reason is that this was about the FIRST TIME the Northern Plains Indians had fought with any kind of coherency, under a few battle chiefs.  For the most part, the Northern Plains Indians fought as individuals, and when they were tired of fighting they went home!  At the Rosebud, this was not the case, as Tashunka Witko (Crazy Horse) and Two Moons (Cheyenne) had more co-ordination that ever before.  At the LBH, the Indians were responding to an UNEXPECTED (though they knew troops were in the vicinity) attack, and responded ad hoc.  It's just that Custer ran into too many hostiles. 

Lack of communications also hampered co-ordinated operations with the separate parts of his command.  If Reno could have gotten on the radio and told Custer he was in the middle of a s#!+ sandwich, the outcome could have been entirely different.  For that matter, if Crook could have reached Terry and/or Custer and told them of the outcome of the Rosebud fight...  Well, you get the point. 

But, that wasn't what happened...

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Has anyone read An Obituary for Major Reno?  I think I have the title pretty close.  Read it a couple of months ago.  It left me with a very definite image of Reno as a tactically sound officer with terrible social instincts, and possibly suffering from depression.  As it was based on Reno's courts martial, I now have a better understanding of what Custer was, and what happened. That of course is always subject to the fact that survivors have the luxury of telling THEIR story.

PS 14 Feb 09;  AN OBITUARY FOR MAJOR RENO, Richard S. Wheeler, 2004 New York, Forge,  "A Tom Doherty Associates Book", ISBN 0765307081

A biographical novel.  13 years after the battle Major Reno, dying of cancer, approaches a New York Herald reporter, Joseph Richler, with a request to redeem his honor. Reno is tortured by the death of a beloved wife, self-destruction by alcohol, and a dual personality; - Decisive in battle, but unable to earn the respect of his fellow officers.  The book reconstructs the battle and Reno's two subsequent Courts Martial through the transcripts and restores Reno's lost honor, but after Reno has died.

[Fox Creek Kid]

George Bird Grinnell stated that surviving Cheyenne veterans of the battle said that if Custer had charged the main camp with ALL his forces then the Indians would have had to have performed that most difficult of all military maneuvers, a retreat under fire in order to protect the women & children. He would have probably carried the day.

Custer's experience was mainly limited to skirmishing with Indians, but then again so were the rest of the commanders. There were very few all out pitched battles and most of those were fought with the military in an entrenched position, e.g., Wagon Box Fight, Hayfield Fight & Beecher Island.

Also remember that many junior officers under Custer's command NEVER forgave him for abandoning Major Joel Elliott & others to be killed at Washita. Benteen despised Custer before that event and afterwards it became a loathing.

I will also add that many historians believe that it was Crook's Indians scouts who saved his bacon at the Rosebud. 

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

A short update on An Obituary for Major Reno, above.

[Fox Creek Kid]

The Reno saga at LBH is confusing. Some say he lost his head & others say no. However, ALL say Benteen saved the day on Reno Hill and actually WALKED the makeshift parapets with bullets whizzing by like bees as everyone else was "groundhogging" it per Benteen's orders.

[Rube Burrows]

Thanks for posting. I dont know a whole lot about Custer personally but love history and that was a good read.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

As I read all the posts, I kept waiting for someone to talk about the fact that, although the calvary enlisted had Sharps at best, possibly Trapdoor Springfields, a fair amount of the indians were using Henry Yellowboys.

So, when it comes to firepower, I would guess the ratio shifted more like 10 indian rounds fired to every one shot by the 7th.

I think Custer would have been fragged in Vietnam. IMHO.

[St. George]

The troopers of the Seventh were issued the then-new Model 1873 Springfield Carbine and the equally new Colt Single Action Army.

The Indians had a mixed bag of weaponry - some captured/obsolete military and some civilian.

For an in-depth read about the actual progress of the battle and not an article written to sell a book - please review:

'Archaeological Perspectives on the Battle of the Little Big Horn' - Scott, Fox, Conner, Harmon

'Archaeological Insights into the Custer Battle' - Scott, Harmon

'Custer's Heroes: the Little Big Horn Medals of Honor' - Scott

The above were written after the grass fires that cleaned off the landscape in August of 1983, and are meticulously documented - even to the point of being able to trace individuals on the battlefield through their fired cartridge cases.

For more:

'Diaries of the Little Big Horn' - Koury

'History of Custer Battlefield' - Rickey

It's always best to have solid, verifiable references - they trump opinion every time.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Yes, I totally agree about opinions.

Mine are shaped by a carreer as an enlisted person, my life often being decided by the viccisitudes (sp?) of the officers over me.

I just keep thinking of the 700 grunts that were led into battle by one person more intent on his own personal glory and the possibility of a Presidency than good military sense.

I believe it was Von Clausewitz who wrote (in the 17th century no less) that the object of war was to win, and never to enter into an engagement that could not be won.

Too bad they didn't teach him in West Point at that time ... although, since Custer was next to last in his class, he might not have picked it up anyway.

And St George, I respect your scholastism and knowledge of the battle. We just disagree.

Again, just my honest opinion and what I have read about Custer and Little Big Horn ... the sad truth is that there are 700 men that died there needlessly.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

Again, just my honest opinion that I have read about Custer and Little Big Horn ... the sad truth is that there are 700 men that died there needlessly.

Actually, the Seventh Cavalry lost 16 officers and 242 troopers.  The combined Sioux/Northern Cheyenne forces lost around 100, though the exact numbers of Indian KIA/WIA will never be known. 

The truly sad part of this is that it need never have happened.  If the United States Government and its agents had simply honored the terms of the Fort Laramie Treaty of 1868, (terms they both wrote and insisted on, BTW), or even if they had insisted on renegotiating it rather than unilaterally abrogating it due to rumors of "gold in them thar hills" (the Black Hills in what is now North Dakota), none of this would ever have happened.

One of my favorite western movie lines of all time, though the movie was set in the "modern" West, is from Last of the Dogmen (1995).  It was spoken by Barbara Hershey in her role as Professor Lillian Diane Sloan, an anthropologist whose specialty was the American Indian.

"What happened ," she said, "was inevitable.  How it happened was unforgivable."

[Stepping down from soapbox, kicking it into the corner...]

[Fox Creek Kid]

...The truly sad part of this is that it need never have happened.  If the United States Government and its agents had simply honored the terms of the Fort Laramie Treaty of 1868, (terms they both wrote and insisted on, BTW), or even if they had insisted on renegotiating it rather than unilaterally abrogating it due to rumors of "gold in them thar hills" (the Black Hills in what is now North Dakota), none of this would ever have happened...

One word: GOLD!!!

[Daniel Nighteyes]

One word: GOLD!!!

Yep, and as you will no doubt agree, "Gold" is a four-letter word...

That doesn't excuse the inexcusable, as I'm sure you know.

Regards,

-- Nighteyes

[Gaucho Gringo]

Daniel Nighteyes, I too have watched "Last of the Dogmen" and enjoy it. I am no expert on the Indians at the time, I had a friend who recently passed away who was Sioux and the movie reminded me of him, the way he carried himself and his interaction with the white world. The warriors in the movie reminded me of him. The one that was the next in line to be chief reminded me most of my friend.

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

It wasn't just gold. The gold rush led to the abrogation of the Black Hills treaties, but that didn't have a big effect on the Powder River, Yellowstone, etc., areas west of the Hills.  One of the main factors leading to the Little Big Horn was the corruption in the Grant administration. Specifically, the Indian Agents' thefts of supplies meant for the reservations.  Many bands had settled into the reservations by the mid-1870's.  (The exception being Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, and others who refused to treat with the whites.) Historically, the reservation Indians left in the spring after the thaw to hunt.  This became more critical in 1876 as the reservations starved.  Politically, they were also drawn to Sitting Bull and the others for their open defiance and stated willingness to fight. They purposely bought and traded for guns and ammo before they went and joined the Lakota and Cheyenne encampments.  Everyone involved was spoiling for a fight by the time Custer rode off to the Greasy Grass (Little Big Horn).

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

There's really no proof that Custer had presidential ambitions. I don't think there's any good evidence of what Custer's plans were to be after the 1876 expedition.  Custer had tried financial speculation with disasterous results, leading him to the brink of bankruptcy. Custer publically stated that the 1876 expedition would be his last, but his post-expedition plans weren't publicized.

Immediately prior to the expedition, Custer had been called to Washington to testify about the corruption on the reservations. He testified honestly, against one of Grant's friends.  Grant was so angry, he manufactured a violation of common courtesy against Custer and ordered that the General (as he was known) would have to sit out the expedition. The issue was Custer's alleged failure to meet personally with Grant when he was in Washington, and prior to his return west. This was despite the fact that Custer attempted to meet with Grant three times, even sitting all day outside his office, but was rebuffed when Grant refused to meet.

It was only a last-minute letter sent to Grant by Custer, supported by General's Terry, Sheridan and Sherman, which led Grant to change his mind and allow Custer to join Terry's Dakota column.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

It wasn't just gold. The gold rush led to the abrogation of the Black Hills treaties, but that didn't have a big effect on the Powder River, Yellowstone, etc., areas west of the Hills. 

Other than for the Black Hills having significant spiritual significance to more than just the Lakota, that the Powder River/Yellowstone area was where Sitting Bull, et al, led those who left the Rez, and that the Powder River/Yellowstone area was where their allies the Northern Cheyenne traditionally resided.

BTW, said abrogation of the Fort Laramie Treaty is STILL an item of contention among a surprisingly large portion of Native America, not the least of which being the Lakota.

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

Other than for the Black Hills having significant spiritual significance to more than just the Lakota, that the Powder River/Yellowstone area was where Sitting Bull, et al, led those who left the Rez, and that the Powder River/Yellowstone area was where their allies the Northern Cheyenne traditionally resided.

BTW, said abrogation of the Fort Laramie Treaty is STILL an item of contention among a surprisingly large portion of Native America, not the least of which being the Lakota.

I'm sure it is.  Just to be clear--I wasn't minimizing the importance of the Black Hills violation, just pointing out that the LBH battle had a lot to do with the rampant corruption happening on the rez.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

I'm sure it is.  Just to be clear--I wasn't minimizing the importance of the Black Hills violation, just pointing out that the LBH battle had a lot to do with the rampant corruption happening on the rez.

On that, bro, we have an accord!