Couple of Native American Questions

Mogorilla · February 08, 2009, 08:13:45 PM

As soon as I beat this cold and my work slows down, I plan to get to work on some items. Being a large flatland gorilla, I have big calves, heck, I have bulls. As such, I have issues with most boots. As you may have noticed with my posts, I am fond of the fringe items anyway. So I have two questions
1. I plan on making moccasins, probably rawhide sole. I have always liked knee high mocs, have worn through several pair over the years. In researching historically correct ones, other than Apache, most of the existing plains tribes knee highs are womens. Any other tribes documented to wear knee highs (I kind of figure most museum pieces are their best pair, less bling on the day to day pair.

2. If I don't make mocs, I looked at some plains tribes saddle bags. I see how they went over the saddle, but for the life of me can't see were you open them up? Anyone know?

Thanks,

Marshal Will Wingam · February 08, 2009, 09:04:29 PM

Ottowa Creek Bill made some fine mocs that you may want to ask him about. They're really authentic looking and he could tell you about the construction. He may also know about the saddlebags. You can probably find him over on the NCOWS forum.

ChuckBurrows · February 09, 2009, 05:31:30 AM

1) The only other high top mocs that I've seen is a picture by George Catlin of a Comanche man wearing over the knee mocs.
I would suggest narrow botas with over the ankle plains hard soles or sides seam - I can supply pics if you like.

2) Can you post a pics or a link to the bags you're interested ? There are a couple of different types.....

Mogorilla · February 09, 2009, 07:56:36 AM

not sure if the picture will show up. I have also thought about Botas and or Comanche mocs Thanks

HorsePen Henry · February 09, 2009, 12:06:22 PM

Hi Mogo,
See that slit in the middle? That is how ya get stuff in and out of either side of the big envelope style bags. Exactly like a belt pouch only bigger.
Horse Pen

Mogorilla · February 09, 2009, 01:17:52 PM

Makes sense, I thought the slit was like the colonial/english saddle bags and that went over the rear of the saddle tree. I always liked those kind of pouches.

ChuckBurrows · February 09, 2009, 02:03:27 PM

the saddlbags pic disappeared - and what HPH said.......

Botas and mocs........first two pics are of Charles Stobie, scout for the cavalry...

One of my favorites by Remington.......

mike highgate · February 09, 2009, 02:25:53 PM

That's a classic Slim Jim that Stobie's packing his Colt in.

Gun Butcher · February 09, 2009, 02:55:27 PM

Aw man, I shouldn't look at this stuff!!!!

That last pic by the great Mr. Remington has caused another project to appear out of nowhere.

So, with any luck there will be a new set of Botas to look at in a couple of weeks. I'm gonna dig out that 20lb sack of beads that I found when I was cleaning out my shop and see what I can come up with.

ChuckBurrows · February 09, 2009, 04:07:57 PM

GB - Don't know what you plan on using for the hides, but I would recommend either real brain tan (if need be I can point you to a couple of sources) or as a VERY good and less expensive alternative, the German Tan sold by Crazy Crow - they even sell it smoked........Look at my site under botas and you'll see several pair made from the German Tan - most have been dyed though - either coffee or walnut...

JD Alan · February 09, 2009, 06:00:25 PM

OK, I've searched far and wide, but can't find a good reference to Botas, except for flashy Mexican boots or wine skins.

Help a guy out here.

HorsePen Henry · February 09, 2009, 06:55:31 PM

Hey JD, go here:

http://www.wrtcleather.com/Botas/index-gallery.html

Hope that works out fer ya!!!

Horse Pen

Mogorilla · February 09, 2009, 08:26:40 PM

JD, I believe they were called Bota des Alas (spelling may be off, I am illiterate in several languages) (I believe it may translate as Winged boots, but not the hermes/FTD variety) Also if you were further north, breed leggins and the Metis had them as well. I have liked them for some time and may do those as a possibility.

Were they ever worn over boots? (other than maybe by Tuco in The good the bad and the ugly?)

Gun Butcher · February 09, 2009, 08:52:04 PM

Chuck, I've got a nice hide that I bought in Wyoming about 10 years ago that is supposed to be a commercial brain tan. It looks pretty good,but it ain't real brain tan by any stretch.

You have some pretty great looking examples on your site. Hope I can come up with something half as good. It's been a while since I done any bead work so I plan on doing a couple of small items before I tackle what I am planning for the Botas. I'll be sure and post them when I get done.
I do have one pair of botas on the forum somewhere that I made out of an old pair of leggin's. If I can find them I will tell you where they are so you can maybe take a looksee and give me a few pointers if you have time.

Thanks, Gun Butcher

Hey JD, they were worn over boots . But I believe it was mostly a southwest thing. somebody straighten me out if I'm wrong

OK the first ones I made are on page 141 of show yer stuff

JD Alan · February 09, 2009, 10:59:34 PM

Well, shoot! I didn't realize I was so "With It" since I have a pair of those. They aren't exactly "Period Correct" unless you count Biker Apparel a "Period"!

Thanks for enlightening me! JD

ChuckBurrows · February 10, 2009, 03:07:10 AM

Botas de alas = winged boots as Mo stated

Worn over boots - yes here's two pics and Charlie Russell painted then as well...

Bill Cody - front left is wearing some crude ones over boots and buckskin britches

A Californio circa 1870- wearing them over his boots and under his opened calzoneras - the Spanish/Mex britches that button up the side seam

They started in the SW but moved north - as Mo noted the Red River Metis (Canadian mixed bloods) wore them early in the 19th Century, and again Charlie Russell painted them frequently on Metis and others..

Some patterns......Some like the Remington ones are sewn up tubes

Some fancy originals of bucskin - the pattern was pressed into the leather using a large heated plate with the pattern "engraved" into it..........

Marshal Will Wingam · February 10, 2009, 07:30:43 AM

The photos and drawings sum it up nicely, Chuck. Thanks.

Gun Butcher · February 10, 2009, 05:01:08 PM

Like Marshall said Chuck pictures are the thing.
I see where I could do some things better this time around, now that I have actually seen a pattern.

Oh, Mogorilla sorry we kind of got off your topic. If you need any ideas for bead work patterns I can scan some and send them to you. I have a couple of great reference books for that kind of stuff.

RollingThunder · February 10, 2009, 06:13:51 PM

Hey Chuck. Thanks for providing the patterns. I started a pattern thread a while back ... would it be ok to post those patterns there for the collective forum to view?

Here's the link --> http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,24106.0.html.

Mogorilla · February 10, 2009, 06:58:04 PM

no problem on the topic, all good. In fact, will probably make botas over mocs, or both

.
Question on the saddle bags, is there a gusset in there? or just folded over?

Couple of Native American Questions

mike highgate