more help

[curdog]

Hey guys I need more help. I've been reading on other sites about the 76. All the talk about bolt thrust with slow smokeless powdres. The thin walls between chamber and the bottom of barrel threads. I know all guns are only as safe as we are but all this talk I'm seeing is making my head spin. How safe or unsafe is the thin chamber walls. Are there any gun smiths out there that can shed some light. I'm trying to make an informed decision befor I buy one.

[OKDEE]

Hey Curdog! 

I am no gunsmith, but I surely shoot more than most of em!   

Well, I guess it depends on your source of forum you are reading.  Sounds like those are some of the same fears I heard back in 2002, when I started looking at buyin a Uberti 1873 rifle for cowboy action shooting.  Lots of fear and smoke and no fire! 
Folks, and even my friends, stated that the pressure spike was too great for shooting these guns with smokeless powder.  They pointed to the firing pin and stated that, in the case of a double charged round, that the pin would shoot out backwards and ram my eyeball!  These guns were made to shoot only blackpowder.  Pure BS!

I finally bought a Uberti 1873 replica and started shooting it and you know what!  All those fearmongers were flat out were wrong.  If you stay within the limits of known reloading standards and practices, there are no problems.  I now own 3 1873's from Uberti and have no problems.  The 1876's of Uberti, Chaparral and of course the WINCHESTER's, are all subject to these same false claims.  You can reload yourself, or you can buy factory loads for these guns and there should be no problems whatsoever.

This is all true of ANY FIREARM you shoot!  Know the reloading standards for that particular gun.  I own a Chaparral and shoot it at about a muzzle velocity of 1200 fps.  Now my Winchester 1876, does very well at a velocity of 1150 fps.

I do not know if this ease's your mind, but you are wise to research the issues that confront you.  In the final analysis, it is you, that is responsible for your actions.   

I am interested in you pointing to the forum that is saying these items.

Cheers,
Oklahoma Dee

[ndnchf]

I applaud you taking the time to do your research and knowing what you are getting into.  I too would be interesting in reading this discussion, wherever it is.

I don't mean to sound like a smart-aleck and repeat the often tendered advice, but why not just shoot black powder or any one of a number of good BP substitues that all operate in the safe pressure range.  If using real BP is a problem, the subs are readily available and make it just about impossible to over or double charge a case. 

i don't have it bookmarked, but somewhere on the net is a summary of the testing Winchester did on the '76 using huge charges and multiple bullets simultaenously.  They never could get it to blow up, but it finally cracked something and could no longer be operated.   Pretty impressive test 

[Grizzly Adams]

Hey Curdog! 

I am no gunsmith, but I surely shoot more than most of em!   

Well, I guess it depends on your source of forum you are reading.  Sounds like those are some of the same fears I heard back in 2002, when I started looking at buyin a Uberti 1873 rifle for cowboy action shooting.  Lots of fear and smoke and no fire! 
Folks, and even my friends, stated that the pressure spike was too great for shooting these guns with smokeless powder.  They pointed to the firing pin and stated that, in the case of a double charged round, that the pin would shoot out backwards and ram my eyeball!  These guns were made to shoot only blackpowder.  Pure BS!

I finally bought a Uberti 1873 replica and started shooting it and you know what!  All those fearmongers were flat out were wrong.  If you stay within the limits of known reloading standards and practices, there are no problems.  I now own 3 1873's from Uberti and have no problems.  The 1876's of Uberti, Chaparral and of course the WINCHESTER's, are all subject to these same false claims.  You can reload yourself, or you can buy factory loads for these guns and there should be no problems whatsoever.

This is all true of ANY FIREARM you shoot!  Know the reloading standards for that particular gun.  I own a Chaparral and shoot it at about a muzzle velocity of 1200 fps.  Now my Winchester 1876, does very well at a velocity of 1150 fps.

I do not know if this ease's your mind, but you are wise to research the issues that confront you.  In the final analysis, it is you, that is responsible for your actions.   

I am interested in you pointing to the forum that is saying these items.

Cheers,
Oklahoma Dee

+1

Curdog,

These replicas are proofed for smokeless powder by Uberti.  As long as a fella does not try to turn one into a 458 magnum, and keeps velocities and pressures reasonable, no worries.

It always amazes me that a couple of guys can spread some internet horror story/theory, and suddenly everybody runs!  There is a "BP only" crowd, and nothing you can say will ever change their minds.

Here's the link to the article ndnchf referred to:  http://www.bar-w.com/1876v04.html

Adios!

[Rowdy Fulcher]

Curdog
I just finished  my article on the Cimarron 1876 for the shootist. I called Hodgdon /IMR and ask about loading data they would  only recommend there Trail Boss for Smokeless . I have shot it and I have used the Ten X smokeless ammo with no trouble . Over the last 3 years I have shot lots of rounds through 3 different rifles and I haven't had no trouble . Good luck

[Joe Lansing]

When I hear concerns about chamber wall thickness, I think about the tests at Springfield Armory before WW2 where they turned an '03 chamber wall and barrel down to about a tenth inch thickness and fired it without incident.  It did, however fail with a proof load.


                                                                                        J.L. 

[curdog]

Guys
thanks for all the help. I was reading a site call Paco's leverguns I beleive. I know it had Paco and levergun in it. There was a guy asking about using smokeless for 45/75 rounds. I don't have a problem with BP but some times it takes a lot of work to get a good load. I don't mind doing all that shooting to find a good load, but my wife does! How is pyrodex I have never shot it. I do shoot BP in my cap and balls and my flinters. However I have never done any catridge shootin with it.
Hey Rowdy did the ice storm get you. I was down in Kentucky this weekend cleaning my place up. Curdog

[Joe Lansing]

I have loaded Pyrodex, black, and smokeless in my 45-60. Pyrodex works well, but gives low velocity (in the 1200fps range). Black brings it up into the 1300's, but for general use, I'll load smokeless (4759) following the 40% rule. My most accurate load, however, is a duplex load of 8 gr. 4759 under 45 gr. of 2F as taken from an old Lyman cast bullet book. This keeps the bore clean and the pressure down.
                                                             
                                                                                 J.L.

[Grizzly Adams]

Pyrodex will work just fine.  Load as you would standard BP using a good soft BP lube.  Another product that I like is American Pioneer Powder.  Again, load as you would BP, but APP requires no special lube, so you can use bullets lubed for smokeless - or none at all.

[curdog]

Do you guys get any blowby in 45/60 from the 76's. Also has anyone ever tried Penicle from GOEX. I'll probably go check out a rifle this week. Sure are purrty guns.

[Grizzly Adams]

Do you guys get any blowby in 45/60 from the 76's. Also has anyone ever tried Penicle from GOEX. I'll probably go check out a rifle this week. Sure are purrty guns.

Pinnacle is a great powder.  It is pretty much the same as American Pioneer Powder.  In fact, I believe APP makes it  for Goex.  The main difference is in the black coating that they put on the Pinnacle.  However, I hear that Goex is discontinuing the Pinnacle product.  No sure why, or if that's even gospel ?

I have never seen blowback in any of my 76s.  Shoot all day and the carrier is still clean.

[curdog]

Grizzly is there a thread that gives information on loading BP in cartridges? Also do you compress the pyrodex and american pioneer poders like BP? How do you guy clean your brass when shooting? I have read the SPG cartridge book but its been awhile and I think it only talks about loading for single shots. I think Venturino soaks his brass in soapy water to start the brass cleaning process.

[Grizzly Adams]

Grizzly is there a thread that gives information on loading BP in cartridges? Also do you compress the pyrodex and american pioneer poders like BP? How do you guy clean your brass when shooting? I have read the SPG cartridge book but its been awhile and I think it only talks about loading for single shots. I think Venturino soaks his brass in soapy water to start the brass cleaning process.

Here's the Short Course in loading the black:

BP and BP substitutes are all to be loaded by volume.  In practice this means you are loading the case full of powder, leaving enough room only to  accommodate the bullet.  How much space you leave also depends upon how much compression of the powder is needed or desired.  The important thing here, is that there must be NO air space between the bullet and the powder!

With Goex BP I use more compression, than with Swiss, for example.  With Goex I allow for about 1/16th of an inch compression, and with Swiss I use about half that.  With Pyrodex, I use about 1/16 inch of compression and bullets lubed for BP. ( Pyrodex also make a product called 777, which I personally do not use.  I think it is too hot., but that's just me.)

American Pioneer, on the other hand, requires only light compression, so I load enough powder by volume to provide firm, but light compression of the powder.  No special bullet lube is required with APP.

I also use a wad I cut from mike cartons between the base of the bullet and the powder.  Just provides a bit of protection for the base of the bullet, and reduces leading.  Some folks don't use wads.

Some folks use a drop tube to load BP into the case.  By dropping the powder down through the tube, you can settle more powder in the case, and do so more evenly.

Obviously, some of this is just trial and error, as different rifles like different loads.  Humidity and tiemp can will also made a difference in how you load, and what kind of fouling - hard or soft- that you get.  Lube is another factor in the fouling.

Loading BP is a bit of a science, and there are lots of sites on the net devoted to it.  I encourage you to read up on the subject.   Here's a couple of my favorites to get you started:

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/

http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php

Remember, NO Air Space between powder and bullet!