?? About BP rounds in my Sharps

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Greetings fellow White Smokers!

After 7-8 years of trial & error, mostly error it seems  I still haven't found the magic BP/bullet/case/primer, etc. combination that shoots as well from my Taylor's 1874 Sharps replica as well as the 60 rounds of Remington factory smokeyless OR the self-loaded rounds.
   

I guess this boils down to several facts:

#1 - I'm doing something wrong, or ...

#2 - I'm wondering about the rifling


Here are the facts:

..... the rifle has a 32" barrel with pretty shallow rifling
..... it has 1 - 18 twist (which I've heard works best with heavier bullets - 'tho the ones I've loaded so far have been 405 grs.)

Ammo:

..... Winchester brass
..... Win. or CCI Large Rifle primers, but I have tried CCI Magnum LRPs
..... Goex 'Cartridge' or Goex 2F Powder - but I have also tried 3F, and have heard that 'Cartridge' works best with loads of 40 grs. or less
..... 405 gr. Meister (hard-cast) projectiles. (4 lube grooves, but only 3 have lube from Meister.  I sometimes dip the nose in lube before chambering which has stopped the formation of hard-caked powder residue on the last 6" or so of rifling)


Loading Procedure:

..... Sizing done primarily to the neck, i.e. not full-length resized.  Expander ball is whatever size Lee includes in their die set, I THINK I remember measuring it when it was new at .456 or .457, but I'm not sure.  (See CRS definition  )
..... Powder dropped using a 23" drop tube
..... Powder compressed approximately 1/8" to 3/16" using a compression die
..... Bullet seated on top of a .030" wad

During firing I usually use a blow tube after firing 2 or 3 rounds, sometimes after EACH round

That pretty well sums it up.

Thanks in advance.

Jeff  "Steel Horse Bailey"

(If your only suggestion is "get rid of that gun and buy a Shiloh or C Sharps or Pedersoli," etc. don't bother posting.  I want to make this rifle WORK!  I would LOVE to be able to get one of those rifles, but that is impossible and will probably stay that way until I die.)  (... or I win the Lottery  )

[Cuts Crooked]

First suggestion: Go to something a lot softer than those Miester bullets....andheavier.

Second: Try asking on the BP forum here: http://shilohrifle.com/forums/index.php?sid=5caaaf58ce7789d66093598b3c1e3d12 I usually don' like to reccomend other boards here, but these guys really know thier stuff when it comes to accuracy and the big gunz!

[Ranch 13]

 Well here's a couple of the things that helped my Taylors 74 to shoot.
1st, the bullets need to be .460 diameter.
2nd while your 405 gr weights can probably be made to shoot ok, provided they are the proper size and lubed properly, the heavier bullets 500+ grs will shoot better.

Now here comes the part you may find offensive.
You really need to do a chamber cast. While I was able to make my CIJ rifle shoot ok. I never could get a handle on the leading. Didn't matter what I did the thing would lead line the barrel and drop accuracy after about 6 rounds.
What I found was the thing has what apparently is a typical Italian chamber. Instead of stopping at the 2.1 mark it will actually almost seat a 45-90 case. By trimming 45-90's down to 2.3, I was able to get it to stop the leading,and it will shoot paper patch pretty well.
I'm sure by now you've also discovered the need to loctite all the screws in the lock and trigger. Accuracy will suffer if the lock isn't running consistently, or the trigger adjustment screws are constantly self adjusting.
Don't forget to check the firing pin, make sure its not broke, don't know why exactly but a broken/bent firing pin will kill any chances of accuracy. It's probably best to get a firing pin and spring on hand even if this one isn't in trouble. Be sure and check the replacement pin for proper fit and shape, before putting it in your shooting box. Apparently not all Taylors 74 firing pins are created equal.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

First suggestion: Go to something a lot softer than those Miester bullets....andheavier.

Second: Try asking on the BP forum here: http://shilohrifle.com/forums/index.php?sid=5caaaf58ce7789d66093598b3c1e3d12 I usually don' like to reccomend other boards here, but these guys really know thier stuff when it comes to accuracy and the big gunz!

I have some .535 bullets made of proper softer lead (pure, I think) that came from Cabela's ... Montana Swaging, I think.  That is the 1st thing I'll change.

Those 405s work fine with IMR 4198, but it seems a shame to fire that big ol' thing with smokeyless powder.

I might try the Shiloh forum, but I don't DARE mention what brand of gun I'll be using.  I don't want to be castrated ... uh ... bad-mouthed online.


Do you think the shallow rifling has any bearing on the matter?  I know what Marlin Firearms did and why (their Ballard 6 groove, Deep-Cut rifling), but I've also heard of MANY shooters who have used BP in their Micro-Groove tm barreled Marlins and have had good luck.

[Ranch 13]

 If I were going to go to another forum for some guidance on your rifle I'ld look at www.bpcr.net . Its a bit more generic forum, most of the same folks that post on Shiloh are on there also. Just as some of us that are on both of those are here as well.

As you mention those 405 shooting alright with smokeless, the lube is likely the problem. Boil it out and relube them with a good bp lube and see what happens.

No I don't think the shallow rifling has any thing to do with the problems. Its more bullet fit and lube. Also if you have the A typical Italian long chamber , finding the good accuracy is a bit problematic. Can be done but you have to work for it.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Load a dummy round but do not seat the bullet all the way in. Gradually seat the bullet deeper until the round JUST chambers. Remember to NOT crimp during this process. Measure the OAL with calipers and WRITE IT DOWN. You want your OAL length for a loaded round to be say 0.005 UNDER this to allow for chambering with fouling. You now know the OAL with that bullet. Now measure five of your BULLETS for OAL length until you have a good idea of what it is. Load a round with enough QUALITY BP, Swiss or GOEX Express, that with whatever wad you're using you will at least meet the base of the bullet in a loaded round. I'd start with 65 gr. Subtract the bullet length from the OAL length you want (remembering to subtract approx. 0.005 for chambering) to get your powder column height in the case with the wad. You can measure this with the depth end of your calipers. All clear? Whatever this may be you will be in the general area of the "sweet spot".

[Ransom Gaer]

Steel Horse,

I have a Taylors 1874 Sharps like you.  Mine is a basic rifle with a 32" barrel in .45-70.  Mine will shoot the 405 grainers OK.  I am still trying to find that sweet spot myself.  It doesn't do so well with the 500 plus grain bullets.  I have used Montana Precesion bullets in .458 diameter.  I have used Goex 2f and Swis 1 1/2 f in my cartridges.  Have not had any problems with leading in the barrel or fouling at the muzzle end of the barrel.  In fact I always have a very nice grease star on the muzzle of the barrel.  I seem to have enough of the right kind of lube.  I think Montana Precision uses SPG and the bullets in all weights have at least three grease grooves.

Out of curiosiity I went to Armisports website.  Armisport built my rifle.  I found the specifications for several .45-70 Sharps models including my most basic of rifles.  In the specs I found the rate of twist in millimeters.  I did the conversion to inches and found the rate of twist in my rifle is 1 in 22" and not 1 in 18" and that was the case for most of the versions listed.  That would in part explain why my rifle likes the 405 grainers better than anything heavier that 500 grains.  If your rifle was built by Armisport this could be part of your problem.

I have also found my chamber is long also.  A .45-90 will almost fit in the chamber.  Maybe I ought to have a gunsmith rebore the chamber for .45-90 and be done with it.

Ransom Gaer

[Montana Slim]

Jeff,

I assume you've measured your rifle's twist. If it is fact 1-18, the 500 grain should make a difference.
I also suggest using .458 - .460 diameter bullet, and one with lots of grooves & BP lube.
Also, check the bore for any tight spots. You'll need a very tight fitting jag/patch to investigate. If the bore gets "looser" near the muzzle, or if there is a tight spot NOT near the muzzle, these are problems with the barrel.
If this is the case, it can probably be lapped to improve it (but it may never be a tack driver).

I'd recommend the Lyman Gov't profile 500 grain bullet, cast from medium-soft lead is the simplest approach.
Also, a .060 vegetable wad.

Another tip is never bother with the heathen powder and hard, waxy bullets. This leaves a lot of hard residue. This must be completely removed for best results.

I learned most of this the hard way....:-(

regards,
Slim

[john boy]

Bailey, Bill Bagwell, aka rednck posted a Postell recipe that I have shot 2 sighters - 1 'no cigar' and 7 in a row hits on a 1000yd target with.  The recipe does shoot accurately and as Bill says ... "in every 45-70 I own":

rdnck
Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Posts: 197    Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 9:07 pm    Post subject: 45-70 load
________________________________________
turk--Glad to oblige. This is EXACTLY the way I load my match ammo, no BS. It shoots in every 45-70 I own--3 Shilohs, 2 Pedersolis, and an old roller with a 1-22 twist barrel.

Remington cases, flash holes drilled to 3/32 inch. Cases are weighed and segregated into light, medium, and heavy lots. They are full length sized and neck expanded after every firing and are primed with standard, not magnum Winchester Large Rifle primers. I use standard Lyman dies. The expander plug sizes the inside of the case mouth to .456.

Powder is weighed on a RCBS 1010 scale. 70 grains of Goex 2f by weight, dropped through a 24 inch drop tube. The powder settles about .230 or so from the top of the case mouth. It is then compressed with a compression die so that it measures .600 from the top of the powder to the top of the case mouth. The amount of compression on the powder runs somewhere around .370 to .380. After the powder is compressed, a wad cut from ordinary wax paper is placed in the case mouth and pushed down on top of the powder with a wooden dowel on top of the powder.

When the cases are neck expanded, they have enough flare at the mouth so that the bullet will go into the case the depth of the first driving band. It is very important to not shave lead from the bullet when it is seated.

The bullet is a 457132 Lyman Postell, cast 30-1, sized to .458 and lubed with Black Magic lube. It is seated so that the top of the case mouth comes to the bottom of the top driving band, covering all the grease grooves. The seating die is adjusted so that all the flare is removed from the mouth of the case, but there is no crimp. The outside diameter of the loaded cartridge case at the case mouth is .478. This is necessary to insure that they will chamber freely in the Shilohs.

Bullets are weighed to +or - two tenths of a grain, and are ladle poured at 820 degrees out of a pot that holds 60 pounds of lead. A Wal-Mart fish cooker is the heat source.

I might add that clean cases , especially the necks are important to achieving low extreme spreads and sd numbers. We use a Thumbler's Tumbler and ceramic media you can get from Harlan Sage at Sagebrush products. You won't believe how well one of these things works. Hope this helps. Shoot straight, rdnck.

Chairman, Phd
Caddo Lake Chapter
FES

[sundance44`s]

I bought a Taylors ArmiSport Sharps rifle last month 45/70 Quigley model ...took me a month to work up the right load  ....I started with Lee 405 gr bullets ...couldn`t get better than 6 inch groups at 100 yards .......switched to Lee .500 gr bullets pan lubed .459 dia .....useing 65 gr of Goex 2F and 1  .060 veggie card ....I drop tube my powder charge 24 inch tube .
Now I`m at 2 inch groups at 100 ............problem with mine was the freebore chambering , I`m useing a 2.995 OAL to get the smallest groups ...any OAL I`ve tried to make shorter , my groups open up and I was even getting flyers with the .405 gr bullets .
So with the loading I settled with I can shoot a string of 5 shots with out running a patch with no ill effects ........I have been doing my casting with soft lead haven`t tried any with harder lead ..I`ve been working up my loads for use on a buffalo hunt this spring .........I plan on trying some hard lead cast latter for makeing a gong go ding !
I`m real happy with the ArmiSports rifle ...no problems here , fix and finish real nice , lock parts and screws are the hardest I`ve seen on an Italian made gun ...Mine was made in 2004 ...but I bought it unfired NIB ...

[Ranch 13]

 Soft lead will make a gong go dong clear to 1000 yds...

You might need to switch bullets to get hits past 5-600 tho. I found the Lee 3r bullet lost stability at the 500 yd mark especially if a wind bothered it.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Where to begin ...

First, thank you ALL for the great tips.  Some I do already, but didn't mention them in my first post, most I will try next loading session.

Now here comes the part you may find offensive.
You really need to do a chamber cast. While I was able to make my CIJ rifle shoot ok. I never could get a handle on the leading. Didn't matter what I did the thing would lead line the barrel and drop accuracy after about 6 rounds.
What I found was the thing has what apparently is a typical Italian chamber. Instead of stopping at the 2.1 mark it will actually almost seat a 45-90 case. By trimming 45-90's down to 2.3, I was able to get it to stop the leading,and it will shoot paper patch pretty well.

Don't forget to check the firing pin, make sure its not broke, don't know why exactly but a broken/bent firing pin will kill any chances of accuracy. It's probably best to get a firing pin and spring on hand even if this one isn't in trouble. Be sure and check the replacement pin for proper fit and shape, before putting it in your shooting box. Apparently not all Taylors 74 firing pins are created equal.

I found NOTHING offensive, Ranch 13 ... or with any of the others, either.  I've considered a chamber cast; looks like I will take your suggestion.  I haven't noticed any problem with the firing pin - it's not broken, but it may be a tad short.  I've never had to pop a round twice, however, but a replacement from Taylor's is a good idea.

Fox Creek Kid, I did do the "chamber a dummy round and let the bullet seat itself, then subtract" method, but your suggestion goes into more detail, so I'll try it again as you suggest.  Thnx.

As to the 405s and their lube, it's SPG - but that doesn't change the hard alloy.  I am trying to gather lead supplies, but here in Indy, pure lead co$t$ a bunch.  I probably have enough wheelweights for my BigLube pistol cal. boolits to last the rest of my days! 

All the rounds I've used so far have been good sizes.  The 405 Meisters are .458" and the Montana 535s are .459".  Leading isn't a problem but the caked-on BP residue is.  I've fired only a few of the Montana Bullets and they seem to do OK with the gold-colored BP lube they came with.  If they aren't the same bullets as the Lyman 457132, they sure are close.  I have that same mould, by the way, but as I'm still LEARNING the ins and outs of casting ... well, I'm probably going to continue buying rifle bullets until I can get consistency like I already do with my BigLube PRS 250 boolits.

Ransom Gaer, I hadn't done the math; I had called the Tammy at Taylors and she told me the twist was 1 in 18" and I believed her.  Perhaps they have better information now than they did back in 2000 or 2001 when I bought my rifle.  I think that ArmiSport is the ONLY manufacturer that has built these 74s for Taylors.  When I find someone who has a 45-90,I'll check a round out for fit.

Montana Slim, is the profile of a Government bullet the round nosed variety?  I've never tried that type.  So far, I've shot factory rounds that were both hollow and soft points suitable for use in a magazine fed rifle, the 405s were the same RNFP shape and the Montanas are the Postell type and visually identical to the Lyman 457132 mould I have.  For the sake of my wallet I'll use the rest of the Meister Hard-cast 405s (with SPG lube) only with my IMR 4198 - they seem to do OK with that. 

If this is the case, it can probably be lapped to improve it (but it may never be a tack driver).

regards,
Slim

Unfortunately, I doubt I'll ever be a tack-driver ... 'cept maybe with a hammer!

John-Boy, thanks to you and your friend, Bill.  I've already printed this up and will try his 'recipe.'  I have some R-P cases but most are Wins.  I hope to get some of that ceramic media, but I want the Thumler's Tumbler to go with it, so I'll be saving my pennies for a while, and continuing with my Dillon vibe cleaner and such.

Sundance, I 'm glad you've found some of the secrets.  I really like this rifle of mine and have a great time shooting it, but I want to do better with mine.  I've got less than a grand invested in it - including the Shaver mid-range Soule sight - so it's a bargain.  I got it new unfired from the gunshop (toy store) I used to work for.  A customer had come in and broke the ladder sight, so the Boss gave it to me at a very reduced price.   I called Tammy to order the parts to fix it and she asked "Is it new from the dealer?"  I said yes and she said "No charge - it's covered by our warranty!"  Pretty cool, eh?

Yes, Ranch 13: I have come to the conclusion that hard-cast and BP should never meet!   Heck - I'll be happy if I can hit something (ie - the target) at 500 yds. or less - like I can with my Garand.

Again - thanks to all!

[Ranch 13]

Straight wheelweights work alright for bpcr bullets. 9lbs of ww's and 1 lb of pure lead has worked rather well for me , not as good as certified 20-1, but close.
Ladel casting those big bullets will generally yield you more usable bullets than trying to use a bottom pour spout on the lead pots.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Straight wheelweights work alright for bpcr bullets. 9lbs of ww's and 1 lb of pure lead has worked rather well for me , not as good as certified 20-1, but close.
Ladel casting those big bullets will generally yield you more usable bullets than trying to use a bottom pour spout on the lead pots.

I've tried three different techniques.  2 of them are bottom-pour and the 3rd is ladle-pour.  As you said, I did get better bullets using the ladle. 

Problem is/was, NONE of the big bullets I've poured were usable.  I have cast about 200 of the 535 gr Lyman-mould (457132) bullets and while I have had quite a few that were visually  good, when I weighed them, they were all over the scale!  I'm talking a variation spanning + or - 4 to 5 grains.  I'm not talking .4 or .5, here.  On the other hand, the Montana Precision bullets varied no more than .1 gr ... and most of them are identical.

This is why I've decided that for no more shooting the Big Bore rifle than I do, I'll continue to buy bullets from someone (Springfield Slim, Cabelas, Midway, etc) for my big rifle.  On the other hand I've cast the 250 gr PRS BigLube (tm) boolits with NO problems.  Oh, well ... I'll just stick to the ones that I can do successfully.

If all else fails, I'll sell the durn thing!  I'm already negotiating a trade with Ace L. for the Lyman mould in exchange for a nice 1874 or so Military half-flap holster that he's making.

[Ranch 13]

Make sure you're getting the mold halves squeezed together the same each time.
And play with the tension on the sprue plate. Some molds do better with the plate sloppy loose , some need to be pretty tight.

[Delmonico]

Make sure you're getting the mold halves squeezed together the same each time.
And play with the tension on the sprue plate. Some molds do better with the plate sloppy loose , some need to be pretty tight.

I've got one of the RCBS 500 gr Sil moulds and despite what all the "experts" say, it gets it's best bullets doing a injection moulding from a bottom pour pot, Hold it tight, count to 10 and then form a sprue.  Only mould I own that will cast decent that way.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Make sure you're getting the mold halves squeezed together the same each time.
And play with the tension on the sprue plate. Some molds do better with the plate sloppy loose , some need to be pretty tight.

That was part of my learning curve ... the sprue plates (on both types of moulds) are fine, but I found (with help from  Dick Dastardly) that I was actually squeezing the handles TOO hard, which put uneven pressure at the back area and created little "wings" on the top.  Fortunately, I didn't squeeze so tightly that I sprung the mould and/or handles.

[Ranch 13]

 Del if I try the injection from the pot with the rcbs 82084 mold it'll feather on the nose. If I pour loose from the pot it doesn't feather but I run into a bit more weight variation than I like. So I just ladle cast using my worn oldIdeal ladle .

Jeff sounds like you just need to keep messing it'll come around. I do find with my postell mold it is a tempermental thing and can drive you nuts some days.
You might also want to check out some of the variuos style and weight bullets from these folks. They're pretty handy to deal with and cast a good product, and will if you ask sell you bullets as cast and you can do your own sizing and lubing
www.montanabulletworks.com

[Delmonico]

Del if I try the injection from the pot with the rcbs 82084 mold it'll feather on the nose. If I pour loose from the pot it doesn't feather but I run into a bit more weight variation than I like. So I just ladle cast using my worn oldIdeal ladle .

Yeah, I know it ain't 'spossed to wrk, but it sure does with that mould.  Get about 90% that look perfect and hold to a 1/4 grain up and down.  No ther mould I own will cast that way.  But it seems like every dang mould has it's quirks.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Thanks again to all!