Full power loads in RM Type ll ?

[Dirty Brass]

I laoded some 45 Colt with triple 7 for my OMV, and I was wondering if these would be too heavy for the open top RM guns? Recoil seemed pretty heavy in the Rugers. They were loaded full, with only slight compression and a 255 gr. SWC bullet. Should I reduce and use fillers in my RM?

[Fox Creek Kid]

Straight from the horse's mouth:

http://www.hodgdon.com/loading.html

[Dirty Brass]

Thanks. I have seen the data on this site. My question I guess is more to the area of whether the OT guns will sustain the same recoil and pressures of any standard 45 Colt BP loading.  My loads are stout, to be sure, but I'm pretty sure non were over limit on volume. In all three situations the air gap has to be eliminated, correct? Compression is less with T7 and Pyrodex? Quite honestly I found it difficult at best to over charge with pyrodex or Triple 7. The cases simply won't hold 15% more T7 and seat a bullet deep enough. My 45/70 loads only took 49.5 gr. of Pyrodex (by weight) 

[Abilene]

I know the guns have been proofed and are supposed to handle SAMMI spec loads.  But if it was my gun, I wouldn't shoot that load in it.  The metal at the bolt notches is paper thin in the .45.  I've seen .45 Schofield conversions that spit out the metal at the bolt notch.  Those may have been cylinders that Uberti cut the notch too deep in, I don't know.   If it was my gun I'd shoot a 200 gr bullet with BP.   Just my opinion.  I'd say the same for the .45 Opentops.

[Hoof Hearted]

Thanks. I have seen the data on this site. My question I guess is more to the area of whether the OT guns will sustain the same recoil and pressures of any standard 45 Colt BP loading.  My loads are stout, to be sure, but I'm pretty sure non were over limit on volume. In all three situations the air gap has to be eliminated, correct? Compression is less with T7 and Pyrodex? Quite honestly I found it difficult at best to over charge with pyrodex or Triple 7. The cases simply won't hold 15% more T7 and seat a bullet deep enough. My 45/70 loads only took 49.5 gr. of Pyrodex (by weight) 

Please do yourself a favor and heed this warning (directly from the Hogden link provided by FCK):

Loading density should be 100% with light compression not to exceed .100".

Just by trying to seat a bullet on a "full case" of Triple 7, you would be "overcharging" as the compression would be three or four times the maximum.

Now I'm not saying you have or did, just trying to help explain

HH

[Jrw8214]

Ive never shot Triple 7 so i cant say from my own experience how powerful it is. However an original .45 LC cartridge with a .255 bullet and 40 grain load would have an average velocity of around 1000 fps. 1860 Army's could get that kind of power when properly loaded to their full capacity. I dont know what a full 40 grains of Triple 7 would do behind a .255 bullet. But i dont see any reason why a Richards II couldnt handle a Standard Factory load such as the .255 wadcutter from Remington or the .255 wadcutter from Buffalo Bore(they swear on their site that .255 WC load is safe to shoot in ANY gun that shoots .45 Colt).

I say why not. It'd be alot more fun than the watered down 'cowboy' loads that are under 800 fps. Which is nowhere near the original .45 Colt

[Dirty Brass]

Hoof Hearted, I understand what you are saying and appreciate the feedback. I guess I wasn't clear on "full case" definition. I only filled to achieve the normal seating depth of the bullets - not to the top of the case. While this may be 15% hotter than a normal BP load by Hodgden's definition, velocity wise, I'm just not sure if the pressure is also 15% higher. My 40 grain volume load of T7 weighs in at 24.9 gr. If I reduce that by 15% to 21.3 gr. by wt., and it leaves a slight gap that a .30 card would fill, thus re-creating an original 40 gr. BP load. I'm going to load a box like that and try them this weekend. I could just do BP or Pyrodex, but the T7 is so much easier to clean afterwards. None of my T7 loads are compressed more than .10" in any caliber, nor are my Pyrodex loads, as recommended. Thanks all for the input -  I'll keep experimenting with loads. Just have to make sure they are clearly marked so I don't throw a OMV load into the OT or RM!

[Trailrider]

Howdy, Pard,
I'm not an expert when it comes to BP or the BP subs, as I tend to use CAREFULLY tailored smokeless loads (some where I have done actual pressure testing using the Oehler M43 PBL system).  But I would say this about the OT's in general:

When the Colt's Single Action Army (aka, then, as the "strap pistol" because of the solid frame with top strap) was first produced and shipped to the Army for testing, the cylinders were made from what we now call wrought iron, rather than steel.  A number of BURST CYLINDERS were reported using the 40 gr. charge behind the 250 or 255 gr. bullet!  The Army subsequently reduced the charge to 30 gr. of BP and a 230 gr. bullet, both for safety and to reduce the recoil, which the generally smaller troops found objectionable.  The commercial versions of the .45 LC were dropped to 35 gr. of BP and a 250-255 gr. bullet, with brass cases, rather than the copper cases the Army used.  The Schofield cartridge, later introduced, cut the charge to 28 gr. with the 230 gr. bullet.

In spite of the fact that the Open Top replicas are proofed to .45 LC SAAMI standards (12,800-13,000 CUP, IIRC), and are made of modern steel in the cylinders, continued use of loads approaching the full-throttle .45 LC are going to pound the wedge holding the barrel, and should you get a cylinder where the bolt cuts have been made too deep, you will probably have a failure, or at least a bulged wall in the bottom of the bolt cut.

I would STRONGLY recommend that you reduce you loads, IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE INSTRUCTIONS FROM HODGDON'S, so as not to exceed 850 ft/sec with a 230 gr. bullet and 830 ft/sec with a 250 gr bullet.  At that, I would check the condition of the guns periodically to see they are not loosening up!  You might look at using Schofield brass, or the .45 Cowboy Special brass marketed by Adirondak Jack.  The latter has only the case capacity of a .45 ACP, but the larger Schofield rims may not fit in the OT.  Alternatively, though it is a lot of work, you might shorten .45 LC brass to Schofield length.

Ride careful, Pard!

[Sgt. Jake]

   Dirty Brass     I have two conversions ,not quite the same as RM,as I understand they are built by Uberti as cartridge guns from the start.What they do share in common with the conversions is design,opentop,arbor pin and wedge.I have been using AJ Cowboy 45 Specials before I converted mine,so to me it was natural to use them in the conversions.I shoot black powder in all my guns ,when possible,so in the C45S that works out to twenty grains,a case full to the seating depth of the bullet with a 1/16compression. For the bullet I ended up setling on the Big Lube tm EPP/UG 150,as it shoots POA/POI in my conversions,shot one full season with them ,no problems with the guns holding up to the use.One practice sesson with a pard I had 25 rds. of 45 colt full case of BP,so like 33 grains of 2fg. with one of the PRS 250 gr. bullet,WOAH!! shot way high,barley on the top of the target.After five cylinders full ,I would hate to put my conversions thru that kind of pounding on a years worth of matchs,at two to four a month for 7 or 8 months. If I wasnt using the C45S,I would use the 45 S&W over the colts and am not a fan of T7,unless for inline muzzleloaders,JMO.                       Adios  Sgt.Jake

[Dirty Brass]

Thanks guys for all the feedback. I appreciate all the suggestions and warnings. I will try the loads mentioned in my previous post this weekend, first in my OMV, and then in the OT that I just purchased, ONLY IF they seem light enough. I won't chance damaging the gun with these, or worse  . I'll report back next week - I'm looking forward to trying these two new pistols.

[Dirty Brass]

Got a chance to shoot both the 44 special RM ll and the 45 OT. Manages some great groups with the 44/200 gr. bullet and T7 loads, and pretty nice ones with a smokeless load of 5.5 gr. Unique. Both very manageable loads that weren't hard on the gun. The 45 was still a little stout, using 240 gr. RNFP bullets and 21.8 gr. (weighed) of T7. I think they are acceptable, but I'm going to do more experimenting with the T7 before resolving to use BP or Pyrodex. May possibly drop down to a 200 gr. bullet, but first I'll work on a reduced load. Again, I just like the ease of cleaning with T7 - and I have a fair amount on hand. I know this is more of a higher velocity substitute for BP. 45LC shot about 5" high at 25'. 44 Spcl. shot about 2" high.