Question on Cimmaron Model "P"

Dirty Brass · February 04, 2009, 08:30:16 AM

I have seen some "old model P" guns listed on auctions that show a kind of "thumb wheel" set screw under the cylinder pin - bottom of frame. The guns I see in Cimarrons catalog show only a flush screw in the bottom of the frame. Are these thumb-wheel style guns just older, or from another importer? I thought they referenced Uberti and Cimarron in the auctions, but not sure. I'd like to pick one of these up (wheel style) someday. Thanks for any input!

Abilene · February 04, 2009, 09:45:43 AM

Howdy Mr. Brass,
The Old Model (aka Black Powder frame) Model P's usually come with the knurled thumbscrew installed, and the flush-mount slotted screw is in a small baggie inside the compartment in the front left part of the box. The thumbscrew is for convenience but I would recommend using the slotted screw for shooting as it can be tightened better and is less likely to come loose. Looks better, too.

Bangor Dan · February 04, 2009, 08:18:12 PM

Hey Abilene!

I was able to talk to Kirk at Cimarron, and he sent me what he thought was one of the older style Mod P slotted base pin screws. Turns out it was just a newer model one. I measured my OLD style thumb type base pin screw and it measures .135 ", while the newer style measures .165 ". Any chance you could take another look at Cimarron's parts supply next time you make it over there to see if they really do have at least one of the OLD style slotted screws?

Thanks,

Bangor Dan

Abilene · February 04, 2009, 09:07:57 PM

Howdy Dan,
Sounds like you have the newer style screw in your gun. I have a Thunderer and a Model P with the BP frame, and they both measure about .133 across the threads of the screw. The larger screw is the older one, so you just need the standard current screw.

Bangor Dan · February 04, 2009, 10:01:00 PM

Abilene,

the BP frame Mod P I have that's causing me all this trouble

is a BN (2000) production. It takes the smaller (approx. .135") screw. The base pin screw I received from Kirk-Cimarron measures .165", and fits my CC (2008) production BP frame. The other three (newer production as well) BP frame Model P's I have all take the larger screw as well. Confusing, isn't it.

Thanks,

Bangor Dan

Dirty Brass · February 05, 2009, 08:44:58 AM

Does that mean you lost a screw during firing? Do these come loose that easily? I was ready to call in today, but something keeps telling me to wait for more feedback on potential problems. I HATE losing screws - especially if they are hard to replace

Four-Eyed Buck · February 05, 2009, 12:14:25 PM

I've got a pair of uberti old frames in 38-40 and haven't had any problem with those screws coming out during a match. don't think it should worry you any............Buck

Abilene · February 05, 2009, 04:05:51 PM

Bangor Dan,
I do apologize, I had it backwards. The smaller screws ARE the older ones. What happened was when I looked in the parts bin, there were a bazillion screws but the gray colored ones just LOOKED bigger, and they were very much in the minority so I assumed (wrongly) they must be the old ones. Kirk agreed they LOOKED bigger, but upon close examination they are the same size. SO... I looked in one other place where there are a few parts stashed from Robert's old parts bins when he had the Traditional Effects dealership. There was ONE smaller old-style screw. I have put it in a baggie with "Bangor Dan" written on it, in the proper (otherwise empty) parts drawer, and told Kirk he would be hearing from you. Give him a call or email with your mailing address and he will send it to you. They could probably find your address from the previous order but it would be simpler to contact him and give it to him again. Just keep the other screw for a spare for your other guns. Might take a few days for Kirk to get to it as they are pretty short-handed right now with three guys out at a show. Sorry about that, but all's well that ends well, and you're getting the last one!

Dirty Brass, it's no big deal but it can be a little tedious getting the screw properly tightened. When Colt designed these guns, they didn't intend for there to be a two position cylinder pin like the Italians use to satisfy a federal "safety" requirement for imports. On originals, when you push the cylinder pin all the way in, the screw goes perfectly into the groove in the pin. But on these imports with the two position pin, pushing the pin in all the way makes the rear of the pin protrude through the frame to stop the hammer from falling all the way. The normal shooting position has the pin forward in the frame so the screw lines up with the second groove in the pin, but you need to wiggle the pin forward and backwards as you turn the screw in a little at a time to be sure that you are perfectly aligned in the groove. If not correctly aligned, the screw will feel tight but when you fire the pin will move and then the screw won't be tight anymore. If you bother to get the screw in the groove correctly, no problem. HOWEVER, what I always recommend to folks is to just cut or grind off the rear 1/8" of the cylinder pin and polish it, then it will be just like the Colts and you just push it all the way in and tighten the screw - no alignment issues. And it looks better, more like a Colt. If you care about authenticity, the "Pre-war" guns with the transverse push-button retainer to secure the cylinder pin didn't come into being until the mid 1890's. If you aren't so interested in the authenticity aspect, the Pre-War frame certainly is more convenient and since it pops into place in the cylinder pin groove, you don't have to worry about the pin coming loose (except every once in a while that people need to put a heavier spring in the cross pin to keep the cylinder pin from moving forward under recoil). Hope that helps.

Dirty Brass · February 05, 2009, 05:37:35 PM

Thanks Abilene. That cleared it up very nicely - well explained. While I like the convenience of the pushpin like my OMV has, I've always been intrigued with the older style pistols and their authenticity. Sounds like an easy remedy to a potentially annoying problem. I feel better about getting one now.

Bangor Dan · February 05, 2009, 08:47:05 PM

Abilene,
no apology needed!
I'll give Kirk a call as soon as possible. When the later style screw arrived from Cimarron I was pretty much out of hope of ever finding the correct screw. The one he sent me did found a home though in another Mod P

.
Something else about this earlier Mod P that I've wondered about is that it has hollow backstrap screws with small springs contained inside each one. Any idea why they were designed this way?
Dirty Brass,
you won't be disappointed with a black powder frame Cim. Model P. I also like the fact that their P's don't have that funky safety in the hammer like the standard Uberti Cattleman. The only thing I like to do with a P when I get one is change out the (usually) stiff mainspring with one from VTI. Makes a noticable difference to me.

Bangor Dan

Abilene · February 06, 2009, 09:35:38 PM

Howdy again Bangor Dan,
Your screw went into the mail today. Well, I don't know if it actually made it to the mailbox to get picked up today, but if not then it will go out Monday.

The hollow left backstrap screw with the coiled hand spring and plunger was the "interim" or transition coil hand spring design before Uberti started drilling and tapping an extra hole for the hand spring, plunger, and setscrew such as the current models use. I've heard some folks say that the method of using the hollow backstrap screw doesn't work as well because the plunger bears against the hand too low (or is it off-center? don't recall). I can say that I have one 44-40 Model P that has that method of hand spring and it has a very light action (only changed the main and trigger/bolt spring) that feels great and has never had a timing problem even with fast cocking with the offhand thumb. Others mileage may vary. For folks that may have an older Uberti with a leaf hand spring, those hollow screws are still available although I don't know if the coil springs and plungers are available (they are a larger diameter than the current manufacture). And just an aside for folks taking apart an unknown older Uberti for the first time, be careful with that left grip screw because if it has the hand spring inside it will be easy to lose

Bangor Dan · February 09, 2009, 05:45:21 PM

Abilene,
the screw arrived in today's mail.....problem sovled nicely!
Thanks,
Bangor Dan

Mikejc1003 · April 15, 2009, 07:13:44 PM

How do you contact Kirk at Cimarron? I would like to buy a .165 pin but have been unable to get a response from Cimarron by email. I have a model P with the knurled thumbscrew that I bought used. I am pretty impressed with the quality of the revolver.

Abilene · April 15, 2009, 08:56:45 PM

Mike, the basepin screw you are describing is the current model. Plenty of those in stock. You can order online, or call 830-990-9090 and ask for parts. I think Kirk is out this week, you'll probably talk to Chip. 400354B is the part. Since it's a small part, you might ask him if he can drop it in a padded envelope and go USPS instead of UPS to save some shipping.

Mikejc1003 · April 16, 2009, 11:01:14 AM

Thanks guys! I got one ordered today. This site is really has a wealth of knowledge. I saved this particular thread because of the info contained. Adjusting the cylinder pin is as described in this thread works wonderfully. Thank you for all of your help!