Primer problems

[Bristow Kid]

Pards I need some help.  I was practicing my reloads with some fired cases.  I noticed some of the primers were dragging when the cylinder rotated.  Tried them in my Pietta 73 colt clone, my Ruger Black Hawk, and in my drop in Kirst converter in my Pietta 58 Remington.  They drug in the Colt clone and the Ruger but not in the Kirst conversion.  So for more comparison I loaded each pistol with 5 rounds and my 92 clone with 5.  Same results Colt and Ruger had major drag.  Kirst was fine.  Took fired cases from my Kirst put them in other to pistols they drug in Colt clone and Ruger but not in my Kirst.  Rifle cases worked fine in all three.  Any idea whats going on?  Any advice?

Thanks in advance,
Bristow Kid

[Capt. Montgomery Little]

Matt,  It sounds like you are dealing with  "high primer" sydrome. The Kirst convesion cylinders have a bit more space on the backside so no problem. The Colts and clones are much tighter at back of cylinder. If you make sure the primers seat just below flush on the cartridge head you should eliminate your problem.

[Blackpowder Burn]

Bristow,

I would seem logical that you have one of two problems.  Either you indeed have high primers, or you have a brand and/or batch of cases that have thicker than normal rims.  If the primers are high, you should be easily able to feel that by running you finger lightly over them.  

I had a friend just last week that had a round of ammunition that would not rotate through on his Ruger Super Blackhawk.  It turned out to be that one brand of cases had noticeably thicker rims, to the point that they bound up on the Ruger.  These cases had rims that were almost twice as thick as other brands in his inventory.  I've never seen that before, but you might want to check for it.  Whichever is the case, it could be that your ammunition work in the Kirst because it has larger clearances, and with the rifle the feeding and chambering mechanism is not subject to the rim of the cartridge moving between closely fitted parts.

[Bristow Kid]

Aggie I have a large supply of mixed cases and it doesnt seem to be any certain brand thats doing it.   

Next question how do I reseat the primers I already have seated.  Keep in mind I have about 500 rounds primed but not loaded.

Thanks for the info
Bristow Kid

[hellgate]

Are your cases dragging before firing off the primers or after? Are some cases already fired in other guns and dragging?

[Wills Point Pete]

 Unless the primers are dragging before you pop them the problem has nothing to do with how they're seated.

I ran into this back in the '70s when I was shooting a lot of wax bullets, powered by just the primers. Here is what happens, the primer pops, much of it's power hits the bottom of the primer pocket. This causes the primer to back out until it hits the recoil shield. In a normal cartridge the recoil of the round forces the case back until the primer is re-seated. Since there isn't enough recoil in a round powered by just the primer, the primer isn't reseated.

For blank and wax bullets the answer is a larger flash hole. Back in the day I drilled them out with a one eighth inch drill. Today we can buy blank cartridge cases from Star Line, at least in .45 Colt. If you see one you will notice the larger flash hole.

If you drill out any flash holes (or buy blank cases) be sure to not use them for live ammo, I doubt that any damage would come from real black powder but it does increase pressure with smokeless, possibly to catastrophic  levels.

If, however, your rounds are dragging before you pop the primers you can fix the problem with a hand priming tool. Just don't put any primers in it and run them through. I have never had a whole lot of luck with the priming systems on the presses. There is a reason precision shooters use hand priming systems.

[Old Top]

Bristow Kid,

I was having some of the same problems with my Schofield, when I cleaned the brass and deprimed I checked the flash hole and primer pockets, primer pockets needed to be cleaned after cleaning they worked just fine.  I know some pards out there do not clean the pockets but I found when I started getting high primers this was what worked for me.


Old Top

[Fox Creek Kid]

Take a look at the breech face of the revolver and look for peening. If so, then post back here & we'll go from there. 

[Bristow Kid]

Thanks for your replies all.  I think Wills Point Pete has my answer.  I am gonna load some and brave the cold and snow and fire them off to see if thats really it.  No they don't drag before firing. 

[Bristow Kid]

Loaded 20 rounds as a test and braved the cold and went to the farm to shoot.  I do believe Wills Point Pete hit it right on the nose.  All 20 went off just fine and none of the primers backed out.   Thanks for the advice and information it was much appreciated.

Bristow Kid

[Wills Point Pete]

You're welcome, Bristow Kid. It's amazing how we always forget the lessons learned.

[Dick Dastardly]

It's great when a plan comes together.  I love it.

FWIW, ALL primers back out on ignition.  The setback seats 'em back in again.  If the load is too light the primers don't get completely reseated.

High primers can be detected at the loading bench by rolling the loaded cylinder around before stopping and setting the hammer over the empty chamber.  This is where I find any that are too tall.  99% of the time the tall primer ammo will work just fine in my rifle.

If it's a major match and you're going for the belt buckle, check all your ammo in the chambers before the match.

Let 'er flicker.

DD-DLoS

[Mad Dog Jack]

I had a problem with a 72 Open Top where some, but not all, of my Schoefield cases would rub as the cylinder rotated. I checked the obvious-high primers, and could find none. I miked the rims, they were close, but it was the (slightly-maybe.002 difference) thicker ones rubbing. The marks on the cases went across the primers, and I was wondering how come THIS problem suddenly cropped up. A friend felt a high spot the firing pin had raised on the breech face because the pin constantly hit a bit low in the hole every time. A little filing and the problem was gone. And a lesson learned.
MDJ

[Dick Dastardly]

I have a shell holder on one of my presses that does NOT like Remington 44 Magnum brass.  I checked and yes, Remington brass is somewhat thicker in the base.  This being the case with the cases. . . . I checked my RVs and found that one of 'em has very slightly less clearance over the firing pin.  The combination of these Two conditions can and does cause occasional slight drag, but not enough to stop the gun.  Given that, and the odd high primer to boot, the gun will stop.

So, when it's critical and I'm really going for the right to buy a belt buckle, ya sure, I test all my ammo in the chambers of my RVs.  Actually I only do this with deer hunting ammo.  I'll never get that belt buckle and I use suspenders to hold my pants up anyway. . .

DD-DLoS

[Wills Point Pete]

 Aw heck, Dick. If I won a buckle no one would ever see it, my belly has got so big.

[Fairshake]

Being that all my CAS pants use suspenders; don't have no use for the buckle. Was feelling good after last match when told I came in second in class. Then found out that out of 31 shooters there was only two of us shooting Frontier Cartridge; Ha! Ha!

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy all!

Regarding drilling the primer flash-holes:

For the past 3 or 4 years, I've been loading the 44/45 cal. for our Train robberies (and a few other re-enactments) that our club, the Great Lakes Freight & Mining Company http://home.comcast.net/~glfmcposse/ does every summer.  This amounts to 2,000 to 3,000 per year.

We use 44 Russian cases from Starline.  These 3 cases will work in ANY 44 or 45 cal. cartridge gun we've tried.  (as a BLANK only.)

When our club started doing this, my pard GW was loading all these as well as other caliber blanks - mostly 38s.  Before he loaded them the first time, he drilled the flash-holes; they have just enough of a flat left to allow the anvil of the primer to do its' job.

When I took over, we could get over 27 grs. of 3F in them with a card wad on top and a roll crimp to hold it all in.


Believe it or don't, but we've noticed that the primers STILL back out some and sometimes cause the primer to drag on the breechface!



Also, my 1875 Remington copy (by Uberti) has to be filed/stoned at the opening of the frame where the firing pin goes 'thru ...  'bout once every 500 - 750 rounds, I'd estimate.  It's due to that wonderful soft steel that the Italians seem to love.


It's one of only 2 complaints I have with this gun ... the other being the non-authentic method of releasing the cylinder pin.  I understand that the earliest Uberti 1875s actually had the pin's set-screw out where the originals were, NOT on the frame in front of the cylinder like the newer Colts do.

Ride easy!