Problem Looking for Help

HAWKEYE · January 25, 2009, 05:53:41 PM

I have a 51 Navy RM conversion in 38 spl. It was sold by Traditions (made by EMF I think). It will not hold on full cock, it holds but it has a hair and I mean hair trigger and if you push on the back of the hammer it falls to half-cock. I took it apart down to the large screw holding the flat "finger" spring under the trigger guard. That screw didn't want to budge so I backed off instead of buggering it up. What I need to know, what do you think is causing this? broken sear/hammer notch?, notch not deep enough? Do you think that this can be filed or stoned out? If I have to replace things will I be able to find parts and where?

Thanks for any ideas or answers...don't hesitate to speculate.. I know you haven't seen the gun so it could be anything. I have to get a set of gunsmith screwdrivers before I try taking it apart again....

HAWK

Abilene · January 25, 2009, 07:25:38 PM

Howdy Hawkeye,
I think some work on the trigger sear and/or full cock notch on the hammer can probably fix it, but I'll leave that to the gunsmiths. However, I'd like to be clear about the type/make of gun you have. You did say it was a Richards-Mason (rear sight is a notch in the hammer & hammer-mounted firing pin) which would make it an Uberti with parts available, but since you said it was sold by Traditions I wonder if it might be a Richards conversion (rear sight on conversion ring and firing pin in conversion ring). If it is the latter then it is an Armi-San-Marco and parts are not available so you would need to be very careful.

Good luck.

Pettifogger · January 25, 2009, 07:26:26 PM

Only one way to tell for sure is to take out the hammer and trigger to look. The steel used in Italian guns is surfaced hardened, but the center is soft. Once the hardening is worn through or someone tries to give it a trigger job and penetrates the hardening, the parts will wear very fast. EMF doesn't make anything, they are just an importer. If your gun is a Pietta or Uberti, then you can get parts and it will probably be an easy fix. If it is an ASM (Armi San Marco) many of those were so far out of spec they can't be fixed and the parts are hard to find since they have been out of business for several years. VTI is the biggest supplier of parts for the Italian guns.

HAWKEYE · January 25, 2009, 10:29:13 PM

Ok, it's a Richards conversion, probably the one you can't get parts for...*sigh*..No trigger work has been done and it has not been fired over 10 times. What's the best course of action here? Can I get a Uberti hammer to fit if I can't fix this one?

Fox Creek Kid · January 25, 2009, 10:50:22 PM

It can be welded up & recut, but that costs $.

HAWKEYE · January 25, 2009, 11:51:30 PM

I made a Richards conversion in .38 S&W back in the late 70's, using a kit someone came up with, out of a EMF 51 Navy brass framed Colt. All I did to the hammer was bob it so it would strike the firing pin properly. Could I not do this with a Uberti Navy hammer?

Hoof Hearted · January 26, 2009, 08:49:25 AM

Quote from: HAWKEYE on January 25, 2009, 11:51:30 PM
I made a Richards conversion in .38 S&W back in the late 70's, using a kit someone came up with, out of a EMF 51 Navy brass framed Colt. All I did to the hammer was bob it so it would strike the firing pin properly. Could I not do this with a Uberti Navy hammer?

Before you get too into trying to modify another hammer to fit, try deepening the "lead" into the full cock on the hammer. If you have a fairly coarse stone. Put the hammer in a protected vise and keep the notch square. It doesn't need to be any deeper than the amount of sear face on the trigger. If no stone try 150 grit sand paper wrapped tight on a small file. Go slow and reassemble often. It's a lot harder to put the metal back

This may or may not work......those ASM's had short triggers (from the pin to the sear tip). That's why they sit so far forward in the trigger guard. That reminds me, I have also changed the trigger with either a stock Colt SAA or a Uberti SAA in the past to remedy this problem.

I would order a trigger from Midway (Peacemaker Specialists) and try that first.

HH

JP Anderson · January 26, 2009, 10:07:03 AM

If it's only been fired 10 times it's probably a teething problem. Before you start cutting metal look for some obvious problems like burrs or other small flaws. These revolvers are not detailed finished out of the box and it is probably something simple.

Might not be the hammer or sear. Something else could be interfering. Check the hand and spring, frame, everything. Look, fiddle until the function of each part is clear in your mind.

If your screwdrivers aren't a perfect fit you'll bugger the screws. First thing I do before working on a new handgun is grind a set of screwdrivers to fit. I find this cheaper than buying a big set that doesn't fit.

If my Pietta 1860 Army is typical I feel sorry for those that ain't mechanical. I love this stuff and it took plenty of fiddling and eventually a new hand before I had a reliable firearm. If my brother had bought it it would be defunct and in a drawer.

John

HAWKEYE · January 26, 2009, 12:05:54 PM

Thanks Pards, I'll get it broken down and check everything before proceeding. It's nice to have a group who will pony up with ideas to fix a guy's shootin' iron.

I e-mailed Traditions last night, they replied today already, not much help, they pointed me towards Numrich and VTI for parts. I give them points for the super quick reply though.

Ottawa Creek Bill · January 26, 2009, 05:51:47 PM

Hawkeye....

I just bought a San Marco that had the same problem as yours....the internals in the ASM's are to soft and were not hardened properly.

The Fix? replace the trigger with a Uberti trigger (yes it will fit) re file the hammer notch and harden the hammer. The gun I have works perfectly now.

If you don't have access to a heat treat furnace you can harden the hammer notch with a Mepp gas torch. Heat to a cherry red, hold color for about a minute, quench in oil, clean off any oil residue, reheat to a dark blue and let air cool.

OCB

HAWKEYE · January 26, 2009, 09:25:31 PM

Thank you, I got it apart today, the trigger spring was too short and not strong enough, and there was a loose metal piece under the spring over the cylinder lock that I don't understand. It was a seperate piece of metal ....I'm ordering a new spring and a new trigger, let's see if that fixes it. If not... well it will make a good "fanner"

Ottawa Creek Bill · January 27, 2009, 02:43:21 PM

Quote from: HAWKEYE on January 26, 2009, 09:25:31 PM
Thank you, I got it apart today, the trigger spring was too short and not strong enough, and there was a loose metal piece under the spring over the cylinder lock that I don't understand. It was a seperate piece of metal ....I'm ordering a new spring and a new trigger, let's see if that fixes it. If not... well it will make a good "fanner"

Hawkeye.....
That extra piece of metal is to keep the cylinder stop in place. When ASM made the frames they machined the water table too deep elongating the cylinder stop hole, poor quality control.

Bill

HAWKEYE · January 28, 2009, 02:02:09 PM

I ordered a new spring and a new trigger from VTI last night, should I also order a new cylinder lock?

Coffinmaker · January 28, 2009, 07:59:44 PM

If the gun you have, is a Armi San Marco built Richards, VTI doesn't have any bolts that will fit without MAJOR rework. The Uberti trigger will fit fine, however you may have to recut the the full cock ledge.
Inspect the front edge of the full cock ledge for a raised "burr." If there is a burr to stone off, do NOT change the angle of the ledge.

Coffinmaker

Fox Creek Kid · January 28, 2009, 09:08:20 PM

Quote from: Coffinmaker on January 28, 2009, 07:59:44 PM
If the gun you have, is a Armi San Marco built Richards, VTI doesn't have any bolts that will fit without MAJOR rework. The Uberti trigger will fit fine, however you may have to recut the the full cock ledge.
Inspect the front edge of the full cock ledge for a raised "burr." If there is a burr to stone off, do NOT change the angle of the ledge.

Coffinmaker

What he said.

HAWKEYE · January 28, 2009, 09:57:09 PM

I stoned the edge and it still would not hold, the trigger is too far out of spec.

HAWKEYE · February 03, 2009, 05:17:26 PM

Update!.. Ordered parts from VTI, a trigger bolt spring and new trigger for a Uberti '51 R-M Navy. Both parts fit perfectly and no fitting needed, gun back in firing condition with no drop to half cock with a push on the back of the hammer now. I did NOT put the extra piece of metal back over the cylinder lock because I could not see how the heck it was in there in the first place, so far the cylinder locks up tight on both full cock and hammer down....All in all a totally successful repair.

Abilene · February 03, 2009, 07:17:33 PM

Glad to hear the good news. Lots of folks think the Richards is the best looking conversion, so if you got a decent functioning one, good on ya!

Hoof Hearted · February 03, 2009, 10:02:59 PM

Quote from: HAWKEYE on February 03, 2009, 05:17:26 PM
Update!.. Ordered parts from VTI, a trigger bolt spring and new trigger for a Uberti '51 R-M Navy. Both parts fit perfectly and no fitting needed, gun back in firing condition with no drop to half cock with a push on the back of the hammer now. I did NOT put the extra piece of metal back over the cylinder lock because I could not see how the heck it was in there in the first place, so far the cylinder locks up tight on both full cock and hammer down....All in all a totally successful repair.

I too have had no problems with the Uberti, Colt, ASM hand interchange

The new Uberti's did change the cam location on the hammer, so maybe that's an issue

I'm glad that my advise to look to the trigger was correct. Did you also notice that the trigger sits back father now in the trigger guard, like it should?

I also have left that "piece" out with no ill effect.................seems odd to have left over parts

HH

Fox Creek Kid · February 03, 2009, 11:50:33 PM

Quote from: Hoof Hearted on February 03, 2009, 10:02:59 PM...The new Uberti's did change the cam location on the hammer, so maybe that's an issue ...

Years ago Uberti used a funky "D" shaped cam I believe as there was a fella on another website (since gone) who chewed Mike Harvey at Cimarron up one side & down another constanly to have Uberti change the design as these cams would literally eat themselves. Maybe Abilene remembers this debacle.