Crimping .44-40 (Or any original Winchester '73 cartridge)

[Mako]

Wow!!  I'm amazed at some of the proceedures listed.
I've been loading 38-40 with blackpowder for the past 10 years.
I've found with an original style bullet with no crimp groove (the current 2-groove Lyman which is a copy of the old Ideal design), you crimp over the oglive of the nose just enough to make the mouth of the case touch the bullet.  I don't try for a hard crimp.
Doing this, I've never had any problems with bullets wanting to back out.  They can't go any deeper because of the case full of blackpowder.
The biggest improvement I've made was getting a Redding competition seating die with micro adjustment.  It has a sliding collet inside that centers the bullet, helping to prevent those bulges  on the case from the bullet going in off center.
Hope this helps.

Col.,
You need to tell us more.  I don't think anyone here has a problem with "bullets backing out,"  the problems are case buckling and getting a tight crimp to promote consistent pressures and less fouling.  You didn't tell us what kind of press you use or the volume of ammunition you load at one time. Have you ever buckled a case with the Lyman bullet?

Anyone halfway skilled at loading BP should be able to make a decent round on a single stage press.  The problem is when you are trying to load 500 to 750 per hour without deforming cases.  That is what this was about, crimping cases without inordinate case trimming, sorting or other such time consuming tasks.

I think I am familiar with the bullet you are speaking of, it's about 175 grains correct?  It has a shoulder where the ogive starts?  I have some of them somewhere, if it is the one I think it is it has a couple of pretty decent grease grooves.

I have tried the redding competition dies, the problem I have with them is they get fouled with Black Powder Lube and they are harder to disassemble and clean than most.  They are incredibly good dies for jacketed rifle bullets.

Thanks,
Mako

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

I load all my BP loads, 44-40, 45 Colt, and 45 Schofield on my Hornady L&L AP. First off, I wouldn't dream of trying to crank out 500 - 750 loads per hour. Running that fast you are just asking for trouble. As I said earlier, the thin neck of the 44-40 is its Achille's Heel, along with being the reason it seals so well at relatively low pressures. Running at 500 - 750 rounds per hour you are guaranteed to slam lots of cases into the bottom of the seating/resizing die. The cases often sit a little bit off center in the shell plate, and if you slam one into the bottom of the die, you are guaranteed to ruin it. While the thicker material of a 45 Colt may shrug off the blow, you will ruin a 44-40. So right of the bat, I don't try to run as fast with 44-40 as I do with 45 Colt.

I have a Lyman BP measure on my Hornady press. I gave up dipping a long time ago with metallic loads. Even when I was dipping, I rigged up an RCBS funnel onto one station, so that when the ram was up I would dip the powder directly into the case without having to remove it from the press. That made things much simpler and faster. The Lyman BP measure has simplified things even more, much faster than dipping powder into the funnel. Even so, I take my time when loading BP. I load up 300 primers into my primer tubes, then I start cranking along at a leisurely rate. If I crank out 200 loads in an hour I am doing pretty good. At that rate I don't slam cases into the sizing die, and I can eyeball each and every case to make sure that powder did indeed drop. As I said earlier, I do not have the linkage of the press hooked up to the powder measure, I have to remember to throw the linkage for every round. Eyeballing each charge is my QA method. No powder with a BP load is just as bad as no powder with Smokeless.

If you are cleaning primer pockets YOU ARE WASTING YOUR TIME!!!

I have been doing this for years now. I never clean primer pockets. NEVER!!!! All my rounds go off. If you really insist on cleaning primer pockets, do yourself a favor and only do it every 5 reloads or so. You ain't gonna build up enough crud every time you fire them to hurt anything. Trust me on this. When I load 45-70 for my Sharps, then I clean primer pockets after decapping. But that is for accuracy, not to guarantee ignition. With Main Match CAS ammo it just don't matter, you don't need pin point accuracy, and they will still go bang if you don't clean your primer pockets. Just put a spent case at station one and let the press work the way it was designed. No need to take them off to clean primer pockets. Even if you are single staging it, you can save time by not cleaning primer pockets.

I don't trim my brass either. It don't grow under these pressures. I do spend time sorting my brass. I shoot 45 Colt in my pistols and 44-40 in my rifles. 90% of it is Winchester brass, but I still have to sort it at some point. I usually rinse both calibers together and tumble them together. I sort after tumbling.

Lastly, get rid of the fillers and wads. Another time waster. Just dump in the powder and seat the bullet. All that time spent fussing around trying to seat wads is just that, wasted time. You ain't gonna feel the extra recoil in a rifle, the weight of the rifle will absorb it. If you feel you need to down load your pistol loads, well, you pay the price by adding all those wads. If you're shooting 45 Colt in your pistols, switch to 45 Schofield, or even the 45 Cowboy Specials, with less case capacity. And switch to 200 grain bullets from 250. If you're shooting 44-40, and need to add wads or filler, then expect to spend extra time doing it.

As I said earlier, there is no such thing as a 'heavy crimp' with 44-40. You just can't get a really heavy crimp out of brass only .007 thick. You get what you get. Pour in the same amount of powder each time, and seat your bullets to a consistant depth, and you will have consistant compression.

If you want the least fouling possible, try Schuetzen. It burns cleaner than Goex because it uses the same high quality charcoal as Swiss, but it costs no more than Goex.

That's how I crank out around 200 rounds an hour on my Hornady press.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Hey Mako, next time ask us a simple question such as how to make woman happy(?). 

[Mako]

Hey Mako, next time ask us a simple question such as how to make woman happy(?).  

That's simple...You get her an XL650 and let her load straight walled cases like .44 spl.

~Mako

[Mako]

Howdy Again
I load all my BP loads, 44-40, 45 Colt, and 45 Schofield on my Hornady L&L AP. First off, I wouldn't dream of trying to crank out 500 - 750 loads per hour. Running that fast you are just asking for trouble... That's how I crank out around 200 rounds an hour on my Hornady press.

I see why you limit yourself to 200 rounds per hour...

~Mako

[Mako]

Driftwood,
Thanks for the photos and I agree with you about the mouth hitting the front of the groove causing most of your problems.   Earlier When Col. Gilliam posted he was telling us he was using the Lyman .38WCF bullet.  He doesn't have that problem, that bullet has a shoulder you crimp over, not a groove.  I've pretty much decided I am going to stick with the Lee FCD, it seems that is the consensus here.  I use the Mav Dutchman for all of my .44s so I can't crimp like the Colonel does.  I was hoping someone had some ancient and secret crimping trick known only to the descendents of Oliver Winchester or something.

As far as your experience with the Hornady L-N-L, I normally use the Dillon sizing dies and bullet seating dies, I don't have any problem "slamming" a cartridge into the bottom of the die with the Dillon dies.  The RCBS dies I use for .44WCF don't have the nice belled mouths and they are a tighter fit, but really I don't have problems with them.  I keep my shell plate tight (tighter than most Dillon users because my shoulder screw bottoms out) and my cases sit up straight.

I use a Hornady Black Powder measure and the Hornady Auto Case Drop Die.  This is the ONLY die that gives me a problem in any caliber.  If I use the Dillon Meassure and the expander/drop die it is very smooth, but I use the Hornady Measure for BP.

I have never hit the mouth of a .44WCF case on anything other than the expander portion of the Hornady Powder Die.  The Dillon must not allow the case to move off center as much as your Hornady L-N-L.  I do run the .44WCF rounds at a slower pace than I do the straight walled cases.  I was a bit flip in the earlier comment concerning the through-put of bottle necked cases, those high numbers are actually for modern auto pistol cartridges with jacketed bullets. I have loaded a lot of ammo Driftwood.  I used to have two Dillon 1050s one set up for .45 ACP or occasionally .223 and the other for .38 Super.  Later when I started using .40 S&W for Limited Class I got tired of switching it with one of the other calibers,  so I bought my first  XL650.  The 650 is easier to change over and it is in many ways more versatile than the 1050s, plus they have the lifetime warranties, the 1050s don't (which is how I got my second 650).

I usually don't have to check the case for powder, I use a Dillon powder check, but with my BP loads I can always see the full case.  My loading area is very well lit but I also have a reading lamp on the left side of the press to allow me to see the case after it exits the powder check die.  I actually spend the most time at station 4 seating the bullet square in the case.

As you can tell by my original post I have tried a lot of variations with the .44WCF cartridge trying to get my speed up and get the perfect crimp. With straight walled cases I literally sit down and crank out 350 to 500 rounds in about an hour of .44 Russian, .44 Colt, .44 Spl or .38 Spl using black Powder.  I use as much automation as is practical, I use an auto powder drop, a powder check die and  auto case feeder. I'd match the quality of my rounds with anyone, my crimps are hard, very uniform, the cases are straight and smooth.  Part of that is due to the sizing ring in the Lee FCD for straight wall pistol calibers.  I haven't been using the Lee crimp die or fully sizing for some of my .44 Spl and Russian loads because I have a '66 Carbine with an oversized chamber.  I also tumble all of my cases whether brand new or fired in ceramic media and then burnish them with walnut hulls.  I spend time in prep to make the loading go faster.  When I was competing in IPSC (USPSA) I would load 1,000 to 3,000 rounds at a sitting (which would many times only last a week), I had 15 large primer tubes and probably 20 small.  It took longer to fill tubes than anything.  That is still the slowest portion of my loading session.  When you have loaded 30 to 40 thousand rounds of pistol ammo a year you sort of get tired of sitting on a stool at the press.

You suggested I ditch fillers, I have for the most part.  For me, the fillers have little to do with recoil, I was economizing on powder and keeping the blast down a bit, I shoot .44 Russian for the same reason.  Cornmeal is dirt cheap and easy to add (I now let the press do it)...

Regards and thanks for the post,
Mako

[fourfingersofdeath]

I had all sorts of trouble getting CBC brass to work in my 1866 and I thought it was the rifle, but I wasn't in a position to reload and couldn't get the cheap Magtec stuff, so ended up buying some Winchester Cowboy loads. Bingo, the rifle worked like a charm. Upon examining the cases I found that the rim was bigger on the Magtec and actually thicker than on the Winchester. I bought a pair of Piettas to have just one type of ammo on the line. Now it looks like I will be using the Magtecs in the revolvers and Winchesters in teh rifle.

[Noz]

Re: Fillers
I experimented with cornmeal filler this winter in 44-40.
I loaded 24 grs of FFg with sufficient filler to fill case.
I loaded 28 grs of FFg with sufficient filler to fill case.
I loaded 31 grs of FFg with no filler.
All powder was weighed.
On paper at 35 yards, there was no difference in group size, no difference in group location, no difference visible to the shooter in amount of smoke and no discernable difference in felt recoil.
The only difference would be cost. The amount of time lost in adding the filler slowed the operation down to the point of it being a chore rather than a pleasure.
My loads now consist of a dipped 30+ grains of FFg with a MAV Dutchman mashed down on top of it.

[Mako]

Re: Fillers
I experimented with cornmeal filler this winter in 44-40...
The only difference would be cost. The amount of time lost in adding the filler slowed the operation down to the point of it being a chore rather than a pleasure.
My loads now consist of a dipped 30+ grains of FFg with a MAV Dutchman mashed down on top of it.

NOZ!!!
Will you quit interjecting reality into this discussion.  It's gotta be a little bit esoteric or the crowds won't  "ooooh and ahhhhh..." when you tell them about your throw down stomp 'em gamer .44WCF Holy Black load.  Sigh... I ended up doing  pretty much the same thing,  about 30 grains of 2F Goex or KIK and compress it with a Mav Dutchman.  Seems everyone here who is experienced agrees that the Lee FCD if the best choice for crimping.  I had already come to that conclusion I just was hoping there was some lost secret to getting the crimps to look like my  .44 Spl or Russian loads.

You're spoiling my fun.  If it's that easy then everyone can do it...ooops.

I was going to duplicate some filler loads my friend Bronco used.  He didn't have anything except instant oatmeal mix in the house.  Maple Syrup  flavored Oatmeal to be exact.  He said the aroma was curious, kind of a mix of maple syrup scent and sulfur .  I thought about "boutique" scents for your shooting pleasure.  Chamomile for the ladies, extra sulfur for the Warthogs, Grits, Eggs and Country Ham for the Southern Boys and so on.

Later,
Mako

[Noz]

When I was in the TRuValue I asked if they had any beeswax. They showed me a bottle of Beeswax, carnuba wax and orange oil. I was tempted to buy it just for the scent. Nothing like a big cloud of orange flavored smoke.

[Hoof Hearted]

I was going to duplicate some filler loads my friend Bronco used.  He didn't have anything except instant oatmeal mix in the house.  Maple Syrup  flavored Oatmeal to be exact.  He said the aroma was curious, kind of a mix of maple syrup scent and sulfur .  I thought about "boutique" scents for your shooting pleasure.  Chamomile for the ladies, extra sulfur for the Warthogs, Grits, Eggs and Country Ham for the Southern Boys and so on.

Later,
Mako

OK........ALLRIGHT
Now who's starting to sound like a GIRLY MAN?
I had thought about NOT saying anything about yer "filler loads", even afer you threatened to rescind my Man Card in yer earlier post............
But Jeez O Pete


HH

[Mako]

OK........ALLRIGHT
Now who's starting to sound like a GIRLY MAN?
I had thought about NOT saying anything about yer "filler loads", even afer you threatened to rescind my Man Card in yer earlier post............
But Jeez O Pete
HH

Hoof!!!!
Get with the program!  It's a new day, it's all about CHANGE now.  You gotta change man, CHANGE!  I have a new Hope now, a new hope that all Holy Black shooters will be treated as equals.  We have to reach out to our brothers and sisters, we have to embrace those that turn up their noses at the smell of Charcoal and Sulfur.  In fact we even have to be inclusive of girly men that have turned to shooting Trail Boss.  OOOOPs, I mean we have to embrace our brothers no matter how deluded, ooops, I mean different they are in their choice of propellants.

Just because I have gotten in touch with my feminine, errr,  I mean my inclusive side in search of finely scented  powders such as chamomile.  Doesn't make me less of a man, excuse me a second my panties have wedged a bit, ahhhh, there that's better.  Just remember it takes a village idiot to raise a child, I mean load a percussion pistol.

Have a wonderful day full of sunshine and flowers.

Peace out,
Mako

[Max Doolin]

Howdy Noz, A while back a bunch were talkin bout progressives and usin a powder drop thru die to aid in the use of a regular
powder measure for grits an such...well I thought it was a GREAT idea. My press's have 5 stations sizing, expander and powder drop,
case activated grits drop, bullet seater, Lee Factory Crimp all I need to do is add new case a bullet pull lever then use the lyman BP measure (with the little hammer) when all is smooth I can load bout a hundred fifty a hour. And using a different bullet fer pistol I can twist the lee seater die down and keep goin. I really enjoy shootin BP more.
I had to make a "Z" bent drop tube so both measures could be on the machine together....I can weld ok and like makin sh^t

[w44wcf]

Mako,
I have used .44-40 cartridges that have been crimped with the RCBS die, the Lee FCD and an early Winchester reloading hand tool......all with complete satisfaction.  Accuracy was the same regardless of which tool was used. 

I did find that if I use the 427098 bullet which is crimped over the front driving band, the Lee FCD can be adjusted to give a deeper crimp than those produced by the other tools. That is because if one looks at the front of the Lee FCD collet, one will see that there is about a 1/8" or so of crimp "land". That means that the crimp will go no deeper than the diameter of the forward driving band. If adjusted to put more of a crimp, the forward driving band  diameter will be reduced to the o.d. of the crimp diameter. That is why a deeper crimp is possible on the 427098 bullet since it is crimped over the front driving band and there is nothing to impeed the deeper crimp.

To get a roll type crimp with bullets that use a crimp groove with the Lee FCD, a modification like the one made for crimping the .44 Colt cartridge would be required where the forward portion of the crimp "land" diameter is increased as per Oldelm's excellent pic below.

photo by "Oldelm"


w44wcf 

[Max Doolin]

Hey "W" thats good info there...soon as I can get one of my FCD's chucked I'm gonna try it. I never thought of lookin at that
but wondered how come I could only get a certain amount of crimp no matter.

[Mako]

Mako,
....

To get a roll type crimp with bullets that use a crimp groove with the Lee FCD, a modification like the one made for crimping the .44 Colt cartridge would be required where the forward portion of the crimp "land" diameter is increased as per Oldelm's excellent pic below.

photo by "Oldelm"


w44wcf 

W44wcf,
I agree, that's why earlier in this thread I said I had considered buying a .38-40 FCD to convert to .44WCF.  You are absolutley correct about where the crimp would need to be and the profile.  I think it would have to be more like Bernie's conversion, I really appreciated Oldelm's photo because I had never seen that profile before on the FCD.

I'm thinking about making this a project for the spring, I need to fixture the smaller diameter collet to hold it open and more importantly concentric to allow me to get a tool post grinder inside of the collet.  I may get a couple and try more than one profile.  I need to get some die grinding wheels shaped wiith the profiles first..

~Mako

[w44wcf]

Mako,

I ran an empty, sized .44-40 case into my Lee FCD to see how far it would actually crimp without a bullet. The i.d of the crimp on the .44-40 R-P case measured an even .400". That's almost .015" per side on a .429" bullet. The modification of a Lee FCD per Oldelm's pic should allow a crimp that deep + - tolerances on the die.

I then measured the i.d. of the .44-40 Lee FCD crimp ring at rest - .445" diameter. The o.d of a .44-40 R-P case with a .429" bullet measures .444" for only .001" clearance, so the crimp begins at the first movement of the sleeve.

The i.d of the crimp ring in my .38-40 Lee FCD measures .427" at rest.  To get, say a .020" deep crimp, the i.d. would need to be opened to .435" and the modification made which means that the initial crimp would start before the collet was engaged which brings up a ?.  Since the case mouth is approx .010" larger than crimp ring, would the case then push the collet forward prematurely, thus crimping more on the bullet than the case(?). Hmmmmm.

Perhaps the better thing to do if one needs a deeper crimp than .015" per side, would be to open the grooves in the .44-40 Lee FCD thus allowing the collet to close more.

Food for thought anyway.

w44wcf

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Why not get a .38-40 LEE FCD?  I have one, so I'd imagine they are still available.

Sorry;  I might have missed the point of this thread?

I'll come back to it when I get that .41Long Colt cylinder fitted to my circa '96 SAA.

[Mako]

W44WCF,
I appreciate the measurements from your .38-40 die, that's the one thing I didn't have.

I'm assuming by opening the groves you mean the splits on the collet fingers.  That might work, but the closed collet really wouldn't be a perfect circle anymore, that's why I considered starting with something with more material on it like the .38-40 die and then opening up the clearance diameter as well as the crimping projection.

But, you have me thinking... I was going to have to allow the die to close more anyway to assure the depth of crimp I wanted.  I might be able to do the same thing with the .44-40 die and save myself some work on the clearances.  I will still have to clear it like Bernie's to keep it off of the bullet.  I might be able to widen the finger slots, then make a collet holder to hold it in the closed position so the radius would be correct then re-machine the inside diameter and the crimp feature.

I need to model it to see which would be easier.
Thanks,
Mako

[Fox Creek Kid]

I'd bet money that there are threads on the Internet by women about shoes & handbags that have less posts than this one.