Crimping .44-40 (Or any original Winchester '73 cartridge)

[Mako]

You can blame this long post on  "w44wcf" for his answer on a completely different thread  bringing up something I haven't dealt with in over a year.

I need some advice and to draw on the experience from my .38WCF and .44WCF reloading Pards.

For several reasons I prefer a hard roll crimp with my BP cartridges. The problem is that how do we do this without crushing a bottle necked case like the .44-40, .38-40, .32-20, or even the .25-20?

My interest is for bulk loading, I have used a lot of progressive presses including Dillon 1050s, for my volume loading I currently use a Dillon XL650 with a shell feeder. I find that the XL650 gives me the perfect balance between speed and flexibility.  The five stations allow me to alter my crimping strategies or even add a buffer if I want to make reduced loads in larger cases like .44-40 or .45 Colt. 

I have two .44-40 die sets and an additional RCBS "Cowboy" Crimping die (I also have limited experience with a Lee Factory Crimp Die).  One set is a 30 year old Lyman set which doesn't really roll or a taper crimp, I'm not really sure how to describe it, but it's not very deep.  I also have a relatively new RCBS set with a true roll crimp die.  I was also fooled into purchasing an RCBS Cowboy Seating/Roll Crimp Die because of the claims it was specifically designed for Lead Bullets.  I am (was) actually using two crimp dies to get a roll crimp, the Lyman first and then the RCBS Cowboy die. 

I have tried six different loading techniques for .44-40 on the XL650. (I use Hornady One Shot Lubricant on all of my bottle neck cases.)

• One involved using a Hornady Black powder measure with an Automatic Case Drop Die on station 2 and an RCBS measure on station 3 through a Dillon 450 powder die to drop a filler of cornmeal  for reduced BP loads.  I used the RCBS seater/crimp die on station 4 and then the UNMODIFIED Lyman sizing die on station 5 to make sure the cartridges would feed.  I was getting some case distortion in the crimp die from time to time but the last sizing die made it all fit.  I later opened the last die neck up to make sure I didn't squeeze the bullet diameter.  It just makes sure the crimp and neck are smooth in the neck area and the body and shoulder have to fit or they are resized.


• I later ditched the filler and added a powder check die on station 3 but I was not happy with every shell that I produced.


• I removed the Lyman Sizer from station 5, moved the RCBS Roll Crimp Die to station five after I removed the seating rod.  I added the Lyman seating die to station 4 where I used it to set the bullet depth and just start the crimp.


• I removed the powder check die on three moved the Lyman seating/crimp die there, moved the RCBS crimp Die to 4 and put the Lyman sizing die back on 5.  I have had good success with this but it requires the same brand of brass and it had to be trimmed brass.  Entirely too much work, but the cartridges are pristine.


• I finally bought a Lee Factory Crimp Die and replaced the RCBS crimp die on station 4 with it.  I backed off all crimping on the station 3 die.  I am not happy with the looks of the Lee crimp, it isn't a true roll crimp.  I haven't really tried this one out much but am concerned that I won't get the hard pressure building crimps I want.

Why am I concerned?  Well, for one thing I am always in pursuit of the perfectly loaded cartridge, another is that I would like to try a filler again.  I thought I could ditch the sizer on station 5 if I had a collet crimp and rotate everything back around adding a filler measure back on station 3.  This time I want to use a Lee auto drop measure to keep everything automated except for the bullet feed. Experience tells me I need the Deep Hard Roll Crimp on this load to give me the case obturation I need with this reduced load to prevent blow back.

I had some ideas on modifying a Lee .38-40 Factory Crimp Die to give me a roll crimp, It would require modifying the actual shape of the collet jaws. The through diameter would be opened up to allow the .429 diameter bullet to pass.  The problem is that if you look at how much the collet actually closes it might be hard to duplicate a true roll crimp.  If Seth is reading this he will see why I was "like a chicken on a June Bug" on his comment about where the die he just bought crimped.  I was hoping someone already made one.

Does anyone else wake up at night thinking about things like this?

Regards,
Mako

[Hoof Hearted]

I'll bite.

Of course you have already learned to sort and trim your brass. This is a PITA and if you are like me you tend to skip this step sometimes and every time you do you curse the mother of all brass makers.............

The next real problem is chamber differences from one firearm to the next and then there is that inconsistant cylinder/chamber throat thing...........

I use the minimalistic approach. What I mean by that is the thinnest brass and trim to minimum length.

I have a Forester? thingamjig that has a quarter turn lever and spring loaded "fits all" shell holder (like RCBS's newest incarnation of their hand held primer) that is mounted to the table of a small bench top drill press. I then use a modified Lee case trimmer (the hand style with the pin through the flash hole) mounted in the drill press with the stop adjusted for the length required. I trim a bunch of different odd rifle cases that Dillon doesn"t make trim dies for their power trimmer for..........

Then a LEE COLLET CRIMP.
If you have tight chambers or throats that need .427 or so bullets this all gets wacked!

It also helps to get that "tight" bullet grip you are looking for to resize your brass. I use Hornady spray lube.

HH

[Fox Creek Kid]

My process:

1. Deprime cases fired with BP by hand. (It's faster IMO)

2. Tumble clean (I used ceramic media) & then dry.

2.  Prime cases with Lee handtool.

3.  Bell cases on reloading press.

4.  Pour BP with calibrated scoop. (I use 28 gr. to duplicate .44 Rimfire)

5.  Load Circle Fly 0.430 1/8" thick wad.

6.  Start bullet by hand and then SEAT ONLY to correct depth with seat/crimp die backed out to prevent crimp.

7.  Lee Factory Crimp Die.


It looks more complicated than it is, but I have done it for so long it's like tying my shoes. No resizing involved.

[Mako]

Okay,
So far two collet crimps...tell me about performance, especially FCK.  What say you?

Is it enough crimp?
~Mako

P.S. Mannnnnn...FCK, I got tired just reading everything you do .

[Mako]

FCK,
I read yours again, actually your loads are almost identical to my reduced power loads except I use cornmeal.  But, I use ceramic media and so forth, I just do it all on a progressive press.  It is the Crimping that had me scratching my head.  I just like the look of a nice roll crimp into a Mav Dutchman. Are you totally convinced you get enough crimp with the Lee die?

~Mako

[Abilene]

Mako, all I've ever used for crimping 44-40 has been the Lee FCD (hey, I just realized that stands for Frontier Cartridge Duelist, too  )  I understand what you mean by the round not having the appearance of a roll crimp, buy hey, it works very well.

As for trimming brass, I've heard in the past of pards recommending adjusting the bullet seating die for the longest brass you've got.  Any brass that is shorter may have the bullet's crimp groove showing just slightly, but it prevents having a bulge at the case mouth.  I've never trimmed a single piece of brass.  When I was sizing to .430, even with Winchester brass I had problems with the bullet seating slightly crooked every once in a while (Lee turret press, Lee dies) which put a slight bulge on one side of the case from the base of the bullet and these didn't want to chamber in my '73 or 44-40 Model P.  I use the Model P cylinder as a go/no-go gauge.  Since I changed to sizing .429 that problem has mostly disappeared.

Anyways, I think a lot of folks use the collet-style FCD for crimping with good results.  I use the FCD for 32-20 as well.

[Mako]

Mako - I'm thinking a collet die that only crimps, not sizes, like the dies Bernie makes for heel based ammo, would probably solve your problems, and mine, too.  The Lee FCD gives great performance.

Seth,
The .44-40 dies don't have a sizing ring, only the pistol dies do and they are not actually collet dies. I think I confused you earlier beacuse I was thinking .44 Colt dies = Pistol Dies.  They do for the standard Lee dies, but Bernie uses .44-40 dies for his convbersions, those are technically Bottleneck Rifle Dies in Lees catlog.  No sizing rings...

By the way, I noticed you said you were using your .44-40 FCD in your Dillon, Bernie's modified die is the same die he just probably shortened it .195".  So that means you can load your .44 Colt Heeled Bullet loads on your XL650!

Basically your procedure is the same as the last one I listed, except I have a final check and finishing die.

~Mako

[Mako]

Mako, all I've ever used for crimping 44-40 has been the Lee FCD (hey, I just realized that stands for Frontier Cartridge Duelist, too  )  I understand what you mean by the round not having the appearance of a roll crimp, buy hey, it works very well.

Abilene,
I've looked at some of your loads.  I always check out .44-40 or .38-40 reloads and shotshell crimps, and usually without telling the owners.  It tells me a lot about their loading skills and how picky they are.

And the judgement is........ I remember they looked pretty good (of course I see flying monkeys at matches too).  Were you using a FCD on .44WCF last spring?  I didn't pick up on the fact that you were using a Lee die.  I usually ask anyone who is using one, or I have been for the last year or so.  Of course you don't always shoot a.44WCF rifle do you?

~Mako

[Pettifogger]

I've tried every kind of crimp die under the sun and use the Lee most of the time.  It doesn't roll, it squeezes, and while it does look as nice as a GOOD roll crimp it does the job.  With other crimp dies case length has to be pretty consistent.  I run all three Winchester bottlenecks and have Lightning in all three calibers as well as other guns.  Problem I was having on some runs of ammo is that the crimp looked good, but the ammo wouldn't feed in the Lightnings.  (Since they have zero camming action when closing the bolt.  If the ammo doesn't drop into the chamber they aren't going to run well.)  Problem was every now an then a round had a very SLIGHT bulge which after experimenting was caused by a really hard crimp and a very slightly long case.  I have found that a good roll crimp depends not only on the type of crimper used, but also on the bullet style.  If the bullet has a driving band in front of the crimp groove I can't get good roll crimps.  Have to use a bullet with a long sloping deep crimp groove with no driving band.  Finally, gave up goofing around and use the Lee on almost everything for my BP loads.

[Abilene]

Mako, I shoot 4 different calibers of rifle, so the 44-40 '73 only gets shot about 1/4 of the time.  My 44-40 reloads have always used the Lee FCD.  All my dies are Lee and I use the FCD for all calibers except .38 & .357, the standard Lee seat/crimp die does a good job for me there.  I started using the FCD because I was shaving some lead on the straight-wall cases using the seat/crimp dies.  Then when I started loading 44-40 and 32-20 I just used the FCD from the get-go.  Back when I was having problems with the .430 bullet rounds chambering in the 44-40, I may have experimented with using the seat/crimp die and a roll crimp, really can't remember.

You must really be sneaky if you were peaking at my rounds at the loading table, since I bring them to the table nose-down in a plastic ammo tray 

[Four-Eyed Buck]

I'm loading 38-40's ( smokeless, sorry). I use the LEE FCD collet to crimp them. My other dies for the process are hornady's. I set the seater to seat only, no crimp. I haven't had any problems ruining brass with this setup. Only brass I lose are from neck splits, and darned few of those...........Buck

[Mako]

You must really be sneaky if you were peaking at my rounds at the loading table, since I bring them to the table nose-down in a plastic ammo tray  

Abilene,
It was even sneakier than that.  I don't rememember if it was a bonus target reload or what but you dropped a round on the line and I picked it up while I was policing brass.  I remember saying something like I didn't realize you were shooting .44WCF that day.  But I looked at it while you were unloading and I asked which bullet it was.  I think you told me it was a bullet you got from Black Dawge.

I've seen some nasty looking reloads, most people are ashamed of them and keep them in boxes, I watch them at their trucks picking out better looking rounds to put in their gun belt loops. One of our Pards shoots .38-40 and his brass is more wrinkled than my Great Aunt.

~Mako

[Fox Creek Kid]

Mako - thanks for the info on the Lee FCD not sizing.  I guess my problem with CBC brass was solved with the Lee FCD.

Seth, the CBC brass is garbage IMO. I picked some up once at a shoot and loaded them after FL resizing. Almost half wouldn't allow the lever up completely all the way. I then looked at the rims and saw why. The rims are too thick!! They're made in Brazil. 

[Noz]

I have had some trouble getting smooth reloads on the 44-40. I thought I had solved the problem by using the Lee seating/crimp die as a bullet seater only but was still getting about 1 in 20 of my reloads that hesitated on chambering. I now run the standard loading dies(Lee), seat with the seating/crimp die, followed by the Lee FCD and follow that with the sizing/de-capping die with the de-capping stem removed. It seems to only touch those "problem children" that would give chambering difficulties. It's an extra step but worth it to me for the smoothness of rifle operation.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I have found that it is pretty much impossible to get a 'hard roll crimp' on the 44-40. The reason is the thickness of the brass. Case mouths on 44-40 only run around .007-.008 thick. That's not a whole lot more than metal foil. By comparison, 45 Colt case mouths tend to run around .012 thick. With the heavier material, it is easier to roll it over into a nice roll crimp. But my experience with several 44-40 die sets is that no matter what you do, the brass tends to 'smoosh' down, taking on the form of the underlying bullet and crimp groove. For Smokeless loads, I use an old Lachmiller die set that I found on the white elephant table at the local gunshop. I do not use a Lee FCD, I just seat and crimp in one step as the die was designed to be used. For my Black Powder loads I use a regular plain vanilla RCBS die set, but I have taken to using a Lee FCD for the crimp because there is so much lube in the lube groove of a Mav-Dutchman Big Lube bullet that the RCBS seating/crimp die cannot always form a good crimp. What happens is if some lube oozes out of the lube groove it acts as a liquid and cannot be compressed, leaving a bulge in the crimp. The Lee FCD exerts enough pressure to mash the brass down despite the presence of any lube. This is only true of the thin case necks of 44-40, I have no probelm seating and crimping in one step with the thicker brass of the 45 Colt or 45 Schofield and Big Lube bullets.

As for avoiding crumpled necks, I will tell you the trick that I use. Do not allow the crimp to ride up and touch the underside of the top of the crimp groove. Butting the case mouth up against the underside of the top of the crimp groove pretty much guarantees a bulged case. What happens is as the case rides up into the die the final few thousandths to form the crimp, if the case mouth meets resistance, as in butting against the bullet, the brass has no place to go and crumples down underneath the bullet. Heavier wallled cases like 45 Colt will simply bulldoze their way into the bullet, but the thin brass of the 44-40 is too weak to do this. So you get a crumpled neck. I was fooling around last year with my die settings to accomplish this. Here is a photo of a bad crumple caused by allowing the case mouth to butt against the underside of the top of the crimp groove.



In this next photo I have left a little bit of space between the top of the case mouth and the underside of the top edge of the crimp groove. I have actually exagerated the setting for the photo, in practice I only leave a gap of a few thousandths.



Crimping this way with Smokeless could potentially cause a problem. The thin brass of 44-40 does not exert much mechanical locking on a crimp groove. It simply is not heavy enough to do so. I have a bunch of dummy rounds I have made up and running them through the action of a rifle with a tubular magazine invariably causes one or two bullets to telescope into the case after having been run through the rifle a bunch of times. I do not have this problem with live ammo, only dummies that have been run through a lever gun repeatedly.

But with Black Powder this does not cause a problem because there is a solid plug of compressed powder preventing the bullet from telescoping into the case.

I never bother to trim my brass. In order to set up my dies I simply measure up a bunch of pieces, and choose a few of the longest pieces for my set up pieces. That way, any pieces that are a few thousandths less in length will be guaranteed to have the slight gap.

I usually load 44-40 on my Hornady Lock & Load AP. It is set up with the RCBS die set and the Lee FCD. I use a Lyman Black Powder measure that is not hooked up to the linkage of the press, so I have to remember to throw the rotor of the powder measure manually for every case. Not a problem, this method is much faster than when I was dipping my powder in separately. For Smokeless I use the standard Hornady powder measure hooked up to the linkage to automatically dispense Unique.

[August]

This tread is great.  It's good to know that others have whacky processes to get usable ammo for their WCF cartridges.

My biggest problem, at first, was getting cases sized so they would (re) chamber.  I found that dies had to be altered. 

For a while, I was full length resizing after completing the round, but found that resizing opened up the crimp on cartridges enough that a collapsed bullet caused a nine round jamb in the '73 at the state match.  Hard to be competitive with that kind of result!!!!

I have settled on a L.F.C. die, but don't really like the result.  It does keep running with lube all over the place.  And, it holds the boolits in place if I don't do a final resize.  But, it would be nice to have a substantial roll crimp.

My problem is that I want to automate the process more fully as I just cannot produce enough ammo with the dipper and hand seating a Circle Fly wad to keep me in business.  If I get a hundred rounds in a couple of hours, I'm doing good.  Not enough production to shoot four times a month.  I'm sizing twice (first a Redding F.L. on the T-7  and then a Lee F.L. in station one of the LnL).  The Lee through-powder die does an excellent job of belling the case JUST enough.  Seater is a Lee and then the LFC die in station four.

Many of my rounds have dimples, but they all chamber when I use two sizing steps.   Problem is, I'm depriming before tumbling with ceramic, then resizing on the T-7, then starting the progressive process.  So, I'm inserting cases three different times, hand dipping powder, hand inserting Circle Fly wad, and then cleaning finished rounds with alcohol after they're loaded.  This is all taking more time than I have available for reloading.

As I said, I would love to get this process better automated.  But, it took me so long to get ammo that would run in the rifle that I am afraid to change anything at this point.  I've chalked all this difficulty up to variations in different manufacturers' ideas about proper dimensions for the 38 WCF round rather than issues specific to the thin case necks.

I'm grateful for this discussion.  Thanks.

[Noz]

As always, Driftwood, you produce a kernel of information seen nowhere else

For my Black Powder loads I use a regular plain vanilla RCBS die set, but I have taken to using a Lee FCD for the crimp because there is so much lube in the lube groove of a Mav-Dutchman Big Lube bullet that the RCBS seating/crimp die cannot always form a good crimp. What happens is if some lube oozes out of the lube groove it acts as a liquid and cannot be compressed, leaving a bulge in the crimp.

This answers a lot of questions I had because the neck bulge did not occur until I started using the MAV Dutchman. The final resizing with the de-capping sizing die makes absolutely sure the round will chamber.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

The only time I try running a loaded round into a FL sizing die is with straight walled rounds ; - IF they won't chamber due to a bulge over a too-tight crimp, or to act as a taper crimp on automatic pistol rounds.  (A .308 die over .45 Acp, or .223 over 9mm.)

Just enough to allow feeding and chambering.  As brass is springy, fully sizing with the FL die would, as you suspect, over-size the round.  The brass springs back, but the lead bullet squishes and doesn't recover the same way.  The result is a mis-shaped, and loose bullet.

On .44-40 it won't work that way 'cause the die touches the body of the round first.  The thing to use here is the LEE collet FCD, which doesn't leave a bulged crimp.

If rounds function after normal loading techniques, they shouldn't need anything extra.

[Noz]

I should have said, I'm neck sizing only. My accuracy at cowboy ranges does not appear to be harmed. I am using dead soft lead for 44-40 which conventional knowledge should say they are soft enough to "bump up" to bore size.

[Col. Cornelius Gilliam]

Wow!!  I'm amazed at some of the proceedures listed.

I've been loading 38-40 with blackpowder for the past 10 years.

I've found with an original style bullet with no crimp groove (the current 2-groove Lyman which is a copy of the old Ideal design), you crimp over the oglive of the nose just enough to make the mouth of the case touch the bullet.  I don't try for a hard crimp.

Doing this, I've never had any problems with bullets wanting to back out.  They can't go any deeper because of the case full of blackpowder.

The biggest improvement I've made was getting a Redding competition seating die with micro adjustment.  It has a sliding collet inside that centers the bullet, helping to prevent those bulges  on the case from the bullet going in off center.

Hope this helps.