Heel Base Loading/Sizing/Crimping Tutorial

[Patrick Henry Brown]

How about using a hollow base bullet in the 38 S&W?

[Gatofeo]

I use heeled bullets in my 1892 Marlin lever-action, made about 1908, in .32 Long Colt caliber.
I use the Lyman heeled bullet mould and the NEI long-heeled bullet for the .32 Long Colt, which I designed years ago.
Accuracy with the NEI hasn't been nearly as good as the classic Lyman, but the NEI's long heel negates the need to trim the cases back.
Factory loads for the .32 Long Colt were discontinued in the late 70s, possibly early 80s. Hard to find a box anymore. Since the early 20th century, the factory load for the .32 Long Colt employed a .299-inch soft lead bullet with a deep hollow base. It was hoped that the hollow base would swell up enough to fill the typical .309 to .311 inch bore of typical .32 Long Colt rifles and revolvers.
Fat chance!
However, the .32 Short Colt -- with heeled bullet -- is still made in limited runs by Winchester. It's usually around $30 a box, perhaps more. The .32 Short Colt may be safely used in any .32 Long Colt chamber; it's just a shorter version of the Long cartridge, rather like the .38 Long Colt being shorter than the .38 Special.
Anyway, if you find a box of .32 Short Colt cartridges, it will pay to relubricate them. The Winchester factory lube on the heeled bullet gets scraped off by the foam holder in the box. Get a bottle of Lee Liquid Alox, fill a twist-top cap 3/4 of the way, and dip the cartridge's bullet upside down into the lubricant, to where the lead meets the brass. Stand upright on a sheet of wax paper over night.
Store in a plastic ammo box, to avoid scraping the lubricant off with that foam block again.
The .32 Short ammo with heeled bullet can be very accurate in a good gun. My Marlin will put five into a quarter at 25 yards. That's with factory Buckhorn sights and my 55-year-old eyes, from a benchrest.
The .32 Long Colt ammo with its deep hollow base and .299 inch bullet will put five into 5 or 6 inches, sometimes 4. It's barely useable for small game hunting, owing to its inaccuracy.

[pony express]

Hoof Hearted:

Just purchased an old Legal Defender Conversion from Cap'n Jack off the Classifieds. It is chambered in 38 S&W. I have an Uberti 1851 that is laying around that I'm going to put this conversion on. Do you think that the heeled bullet will work with the 38 S&W? Is it close enough to get by with the 38 Short Colt loaded with a heeled bullet? Or, since i have a spare barrel around here as well, would I be better off to just reline one of the the barrels in 357 diameter?

Preacher Clint

Your short colt cases will swell quite a bit if fired in a 38S&W chamber. And I suspect you MIGHT have to use .38 spec dies to load a heel base bullet in the S&W case. I tried sizing a bunch of special brass with my S&W sizing die once, and it didn't size them down enough.....many of the bullets would seat all the way with just finger pressure. (Yes, I used the regular 38 spec expander die)

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Thanks, Who Far ... er, Hoofie!

This whole post has been an education.  What really gets me is that I have managed to over-look it all this time!

I have no dog in this fight (not a fight at all, but you know whut I mean.)  I have very little personal involvement with heel-based rounds (NOT heal!) beyond 22 rimfires, but this is VERY educational and informative.  A friend of mine, "Ottawa Creek Bill" Proctor, is a true Living Historian, and a couple years ago made a conversion and also created some type of heel-base round crimping apparatus, but if I remember, it was along the lines of a stab crimp, not the way you have described.

To all y'all: Oldelm, Hoof Hearted, Pony Express, Mako, 44WCF, Mr. Brown/Clint, Gatofeo and others I might have missed - thanks for the info!

[Pony Racer]

I found the challenge of reloading the 11mm french round (heel based/outside lubed) so challenging that I took a look at my various other guns that shoot a a load with 1.0 cc of BP and have decided to convert my 11mm St Etienne revolvers into 44 Russian shooters.

I know that hurts the collector value but I bought them to shoot them and they are at best shooter grade guns.  I plan to shoot up my remaining 11mm French ammo and then have my local gunsmith do the conversion.

Theses guns were built to fire a 1.0cc loaded 11mm round and the French Marines also shot a 12mm round out of same gun (slightly converted) with what appears to be about a 1.5cc of BP. So I know the gun will do fine with my hand loaded 44 russian rounds.

My 44 russian brass with 1.0cc of 2F with BigLube bullet will shoot like a "cats meow" out of these hand guns.

My gunsmith will have to do minor work to the cylinders, sleeve the barrels for .429, and then some minor retiming.

Wahoooooooo - guns will go into the work que sometime after the new year!

PR

[Steel Horse Bailey]

I have to say that I had been fluttering around with this for 5 to 10 years myself and tried making many different forms of "crimpers" (I must have reground 6 different cable crimpers). Then Lee supposedly would "alter" one in the shop (mine sat there 4 months then they told me NO). Without a doubt this is the Cats Meow, so to speak!

I also renewed my vigor when reading (and talking with) OCB and Half Creek Charlie (he's on the lamd somwhere) and seeing what they were doing caused me to convert many firearms!

How is OCB (I can jack my own thread here for a bit)?

Hoof-Hearted - Greetings again, pard!

Of course you can! It's your post; you can do what you want with it!

I haven't spoken to Bill in a month or two, and haven't seen him since Sept. when Major Roger Two was in town.  At that time, Bill was VERY hard at work putting the finishing touches to the Movie, and trying to get it all done for the Sundance Film Festival entry deadline for 2012.

I admired his conversion greatly and was sad when I found he had sold it.  I won't mention the price, but whoever bought it, stole it for a bargain basement price!  I don't know if he included his crimp tool with it; I haven't heard any more about that.  Dave "Jed Cooper" H. is considering having Bill convert a pair of Colts (repros) for him.  I think a pair of 1851s.  I don't know which model of conversion it would be or even if both would be done as the same type.  But from what I saw, they will be excellently done!

[pony express]

Since this thread has come back to life, here's what I've been up to-
Got a mould and crimping die from Old West Moulds everything is excellent quality! Mould casts good right away, crimper works pretty well, but the bullet bases still aren't tight enough in the case necks, I can seat most of them by just pushing the bullet nose against the edge of the loading bench. The crimp will prevent them from pulling OUT, but most can be turned in the case necks by hand. I'm using a 9MM expander button already, may have to polish it down a bit. But now I've discovered that my 1892 colt is somewhat out of time, so all the loading work will have to wait until I get the gun working right.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Since this thread has come back to life, here's what I've been up to-
Got a mould and crimping die from Old West Moulds everything is excellent quality! Mould casts good right away, crimper works pretty well, but the bullet bases still aren't tight enough in the case necks, I can seat most of them by just pushing the bullet nose against the edge of the loading bench. The crimp will prevent them from pulling OUT, but most can be turned in the case necks by hand. I'm using a 9MM expander button already, may have to polish it down a bit. But now I've discovered that my 1892 colt is somewhat out of time, so all the loading work will have to wait until I get the gun working right.

Good luck to ya, Pony Runner!

[Major 2]

Hoof-Hearted - Greetings again, pard!

Of course you can! It's your post; you can do what you want with it!

I haven't spoken to Bill in a month or two, and haven't seen him since Sept. when Major Roger Two was in town.  At that time, Bill was VERY hard at work putting the finishing touches to the Movie, and trying to get it all done for the Sundance Film Festival entry deadline for 2012.

I admired his conversion greatly and was sad when I found he had sold it.  I won't mention the price, but whoever bought it, stole it for a bargain basement price!  I don't know if he included his crimp tool with it; I haven't heard any more about that.  Dave "Jed Cooper" H. is considering having Bill convert a pair of Colts (repros) for him.  I think a pair of 1851s.  I don't know which model of conversion it would be or even if both would be done as the same type.  But from what I saw, they will be excellently done!

That was fun day , eh Jeff  OCB was super host.  I've been rereading this thread & printed...as you know
This will be my "Cherry" into reloading.... Gary's help and the fine little pistol he made me has been the push I needed to give reloading a try.

I built a bench & have a "gifted" new old stock Lyman press...I've contacted Bernie @ Old West Molds...mean while as I assemble the needed tools
Gary will be re-loading for me.