Heel Base Loading/Sizing/Crimping Tutorial

[Hoof Hearted]

Refer to Mako for information

[Mako]

Hoof,
Very informative, thank you. 

I have two questions:

The first is why do you need the extension on the crimping die? You are just crimping the case mouth aren't you?  I had to seat my Lee Factory Crimp die deeper for my .44 Russian cartridges but that was just adjusting the body down on my Dillon press.

The second is about the volume of lube in your grooves.  The grooves look very shallow, is there enough for an 8" barrel to make it through an match? (I guess I lied about two questions)And what kind of lube are you using?  It is suspiciously "pink"...

Thanks,
Mako

[Mako]

Seth,
Thanks, so it is not a standard Lee Factory Crimp die then.  Interesting, so I'm guessing the crimp is not at the mouth, but on the heeled diameter?

I just assumed it was a shortened die.  Does it still have the carbide sizer in it, or has that been removed?  I use Lee Factory Crimp Dies for all of my revolver cartridges and I like the fact it resizes the loaded cartridge body as it crimps.

~Mako

[Oldelm]

I bought Bernie's modified Lee FCD a few years back , along with his 248gr heel base mould. It was ole Charlie Harper that got me interested in shooting heel base loads in my Remington NMA with R&D conversion. I've had fun shooting this load, and have only loaded 44Colt cases.
The details of what HH has posted and the follow-ups by Seth really help flesh out the detaiils. I'm not familiar with a regular Lee FCD so when examining Bernie's modified one,...I can't tell what's been modified. I use a Dillon Square Deal press for all the operations except crimping,.....then I use this Lee press to put the crimp on the mouth of the .44Colt case..


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......Here's a few close-up photos of Bernie's modified Lee FCD.....

the two piece die...


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...the collet looking down into the top area, the ridge that does the actual crimping.



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Based on what you folks have been saying here, and looking at my set-up,..I think I may have to get the adjustable shell holder from Bernie if I want to load the heeled bullet in the shorter .44Russian case.


Thanks for all the good info.

[Mako]

Mako - the crimp die does crimp the case mouth.
This is why a conventional roll/taper crimp die won't work with heel based bullets, and probably why a standard FCD won't work, either.  In Bernie's die, the collet doesn't begin to squeeze the brass until the bullet has gone past the collet.

Seth,
I was trying to understand how this die differs from a standard Lee Factory Crimp Die other than removal of the sizing ring. But I think I stumbled on the real answer, I don't think Bernie is using a pistol die, now that I go back and look at Hoof's pictures I think it is a Lee rifle die which has a 4 piece collet. It crimps the neck and not the mouth (you fooled me for a second when you said it crimped the mouth, I was thinking "roll crimp").  I'm also looking at Hoof's last picture and it looks like a rifle neck crimp instead of the pistol roll crimp.  In his earlier thread about 44 Heel Base Bullet Comparison you can't see the crimps as well and I didn't make the connection.

It also makes sense because on the rifle die the crimper does not move up and down so you would have to adjust how deep the cartridge enters the die to set were the crimp is.  The rifle dies are caliber specific.

Thie biggest thing of course is that you don't upset the outside diameter of the bullet, any other kind of pistol die whether roll or taper crimp will affect the diameter.  The true collet stays outboard until the collet is closed by the shell holder.

~Mako

[Mako]

Oldelm,
Thanks for posting the picture. Yep that's a "rifle" die.

~Mako
You posted while I was typing...

[Mako]

I'm not familiar with a regular Lee FCD so when examining Bernie's modified one,...I can't tell what's been modified.

Oldelm,
I can explain the difference between the die you have and the Lee Pistol Die, but how Hoof's and Seth's dies differ from the standard Lee rifle dies I can't tell.  Yours looks pretty standard.

As I type this I am holding a .44Spl/.44Mag/.44 Super Mag crimp die in my left hand.  The die has seven (7) components; a body with a carbide sizer ring press fit into the mouth, a lock ring with an o-ring for friction, what Lee calls the Crimp Adjuster threaded in from the top and an o-ring on it to provide a friction position holder and a Floating Crimper Ring which is free to move up and down between the sizing ring and the crimp adjuster.

The Lee pistol die allows the bullet to pass through without any affect on the length or crimp. The die is adjusted down until it just touches the shell holder or shell plate in the case of a Dillon and then I back it off 1/8th turn (Lee says let it touch).  This sets the sizing length, at this setting the entire case length up to the web will get a final resizing. You insert a case with the bullet set to the final length, but un-crimped. You then adjust the Crimp die down until you get the desired crimp.  The Adjuster just sets how high the crimp ring is relative to the case mouth.  I have heard it erroneously described as a "collet," but on the pistol die it's really not a collet.  Simply imagine a roll crimp die where the crimp area floats.

The rifle die requires the shell holder to bump the bottom of the collet to close it.  Yours is just set for the one length, what Seth has described and the picture Hoof has posted shows a reduced diameter shell holder which must allow the cartridge to go deeper into the die body with the shorter .44 Russians.  What I can't tell is what hits the collet and causes it to close.  Can either Hoof or Seth shed light on this?  I don't think Oldelm has that on his.

~Mako

[Mako]

By the way, thanks to Hoof, Seth and Oldelm, this is an incredibly informative post. I've never seen this info posted anywhere.  Bernie doesn't tell you much on his site and he needs to better explain it.

Bernie could almost use some of the info here.  Bernie has made do with his reputation and word of mouth which is a testimony to his workmanship and products.  I keep flirting with true conversions on pairs of '60s but have always backed away because of the heeled bullets. I have a new pair of Uberti transition models but as I work with them I am increasingly disappointed they are not the correct size.  Not only do they not fit my holsters well but they just look a bit off.  Bernie's set up looks workable.  Hmmmm... now to figure out how to make it work on a progressive press without that shell holder.  (betcha' I can for a one shell length set up like Oldelm has)

~Mako

[w44wcf]

HH
Thank you for the interesting post and pics.

Oldelm,
Thank you for the additional info and pics. 

Mako,
Based on Oldelm's pics, Bernie is modifying the .44-40 FCD
I have one of these for loading .44-40's and it works great!

w44wcf

[Oldelm]

Howdy Mako,
Thanks for all your info, questions, head scratching, and problem solving skills,...it's helping me to better understand this "mystery" of crimping the heel base bullet. All I know is that Bernie's set-up works great , and the info from everyone on this thread is helping me get my mind around it.

The rifle die requires the shell holder to bump the bottom of the collet to close it.  Yours is just set for the one length, what Seth has described and the picture Hoof has posted shows a reduced diameter shell holder which must allow the cartridge to go deeper into the die body with the shorter .44 Russians.  What I can't tell is what hits the collet and causes it to close.  Can either Hoof or Seth shed light on this?  I don't think Oldelm has that on his.

Yes, when the shellholder on mine bumps up onto the bottom of the "collet", it pushes it up causing the top tapered nose of the collet to contact the corresponding / mating tapered ledge within the threaded sleeve, thereby pushing the 4 "fingers" of the collet together, contacting the case , creating a nice crimp at the end of the case and into the crimp groove of the heeled bullet.

...here's a close-up shot (from the bottom) looking up inside of the threaded sleeve where you can see the tapered (sloping) ledge with a dark band on it.(hard rubber?) This is what the collet bumps up onto causing the fingers to crimp in on the case. Hope this helps show the process. 

[Mako]

Based on Oldelm's pics, Bernie is modifying the .44-40 FCD
I have one of these for loading .44-40's and it works great!
w44wcf

BINGO! 
w44wcf, I think you hit it on the head, I should have realized it from the start.  All he has to do is shorten it by.195" for a .44 Colt.  Any idea what he might do for the .44 Russian Case? Now I am assuming that Hoof is crimping his .44 Russian cases with this set up, did he ever actually say that you could?  If you can't I am back to wondering why you need an adjustable shell holder.

How do you like the results with your .44wcf cartridges and that die?  I have one I bought way over a year ago, but have been shooting so much .44 Spl and Russian I haven't done much with it yet, I still have lots of loaded .44-40 ammo.
 
I'm gonna start another thread so we don't completely hijack this one about crimping the Winchester Centerfire Cases.  Be looking for it.

Regards,
Mako

[Mako]

Mako - My crimp die is identical to what Oldelm shows.  As I don't have one of the adjustable shell holders, I'll let HH describe it's operation.
Sorry for the confusion on the "case mouth / case neck" terminology.  I should have said case neck.

Seth,
No worries man!  This is all good info. You can see why I was a bit confused and you'll know even further more why I was when you see my thread about .44-40 crimping.  I was thinking pistol dies and forgetting that the .44WCF dies Lee makes are technically rifle dies.  I couldn't figure out how to get a roll crimp with the set up.

I am still wondering what the adjustable shell holder set up Hoof has actually accomplishes.

~Mako

[Mako]

Hoof,
Thanks!
Lube - I figured you added something to color it.
Enough Lube- I want more, I'm gonna ask if he will make a custom cherry for me and give me a bigger groove.
Crimp Die- I only look stupid... I was never intending to make one, I just wanted to understand how it worked, the shell holder extension threw me.  It still does, tell me what it's for.
Sizing- I am getting away from resizing BP cases when I can. I tend to size pistol cases more than rifle cases to make sure they don't stick back and bind the cylinder.  I don't shoot SAAs much but if I did the .44-40s or a new pair of them would be used.

Oh, and it doesn't surprise me that he might thin the collet fingers.  I just pulled my  Lee .44-40 die out and looked at it. It is set to crimp that thinner case wall and with .427" bullets if necessary, the .44 Colt is a larger diameter at the neck.  My .44 Colts after being "re-sized" after crimping on a Lee die are about Ø.451" right at the crimp and my .44-40s are Ø.439, I have some factory Winchester ammo that is Ø.437.

So tell us about this adjustable shell holder no one else has...Why are you so special?  You know you have Seth and Oldelm jealous now.

~Mako

[Mako]

My Dillon's shell plate has some vertical "give" to it (sort of spring loaded) to allow the plate to turn freely and index correctly.  This "give" in the plate might make using/adjusting Bernie's collet crimp die difficult at best since this die is activated by the shell holder pushing up on the collet.  At worst, you might have to move your ammo to a single stage press for the crimp.  I don't see why you couldn't use a progressive press for everything else when loading the heel based bullet.

Seth,
I'm lazy... I want to do it all on the Dillon.
Since it is in the upward stroke it works, my .44-40 die works.

You know that Shoulder screw in the middle of your shell plate?  The amount you have it turned in is probably what is setting your plate clearance.  It shouldn't work that way, a shoulder screw should be bottomed out. They are counting on the "ejector wire" that surrounds it to keep it from backing out any more.

Mine was too short and if you bottomed it out it bound the plate up.  I called the factory about it and they told me you weren't supposed to tighten it all of the way.  I told them they were nuts.  They told me I could return it to have it checked out.  This prompted an email to Mike, he just called me directly.  He said he sighed when he saw who it was from.  I beat him up a bit, he said everyone was leaving them loose anyway.  I chewed on his ear for misusing a shoulder screw and told me to send the plate back.  I asked "which one?"  He laughed and said all of them, I got them back 3 days later they had spot faced everyone where the shoulder screw head retains the plate.  I can now screw it in and the clearance is set. 

The only problem is I will have to get any new shell plates modified to keep it all the same.  I could have gotten some shoulder screw shims and accomplished the same thing.  If you want to do it you can get them from McMaster-Carr  Part number 91140A237  Plain Steel Shoulder Screw Shim - Lengthening .005" Thk, 3/8" Thread, 1/2" Shoulder,.352" ID,.496" OD  http://www.mcmaster.com/itm/find.ASP?tab=find&context=psrchDtlLink&fasttrack=False&searchstring=91140A237 . Get the .005" thick ones they fit tight and won't slip over the threads, "thread" them on.  They don't go under the head, that would make it tighter they go on the shoulder where the thread is to space it taller.

Look at your shell plate, see that area where the relief is around the opening for the shell?  That is where the bottom of the collet will push and since the plate is spring loaded (actually it is the detent ball bearing between stations 4 and 5 that is spring loaded) it will push back against the face of the platform body.  It will sit square on this face and not bend anything.

Later,
Mako

[Mako]

Enough lube
The amount of bearing surface is not really conducive to making bigger lube grooves. I would try what Fox Creek spoke of in the other thread (I have done this and it gets messy in the summer), dip the loaded round in melted bees wax. Or do the bore butter over the chambered round trick. You know this big lube thing has kinda gotten outta hand (don't tell Dick). Or you could use Trail Boss (I like being a rebel).
HH

Hoof,
I sure hope Dick skips over this one.  You may have your Big Lube BOOOOLIT membership card revoked.

I almost gagged when I read TRAIL BOSS!!!!!!!!!!!!, now you're jeopardizing your "man card!!"  What's up with you? My 15 year old daughter shoots Trail Boss, she also wears skirts... 

~Mako

[Mako]

Mako
Why don't you let yer daughter shoot BP, stingy
HH

Her choice, not mine, she says it makes her hair smell...  
I told her she needs to start using it to get used to it.  She also has the makings of a gunfighter, she never has shot "traditional" two handed style, she shoots both hands (she's left handed but totally ambidextrous) double duelist style now.  If I could get her to more matches and have a good place to practice she has the makings of a national champion (seriously).

I hope you know I'm yanking yer chain about the smokeless, besides you couldn't impress me now girly man...

I don't think I like you though...bragn' about yer berms and all...

I do want to thank you again for the pictures this morning it was very enlightening.

Regards,
Mako

[Pony Racer]

Awesome I may just have to try this with my 11mm french bullets!!

[Pony Racer]

I have to wonder that if the french built things all along as well as these pistols they might have been fine.

The round is pretty anemic by todays and yesterdays standards but the 1873 pistols are extremely well made and built like a tank.

I have shot half a match with them after getting ok from local match director.  Once I work out some better leather I will do it again.

I will contact Bernie - I know he makes the french bullet and the molds - be great if he still makes or will make the crimping tool.  I have tried several batches with my made for me dies, brass and bullets and that crimping tool appears to be the needed piece I do not have.

PR

[Patrick Henry Brown]

Hoof Hearted:

Just purchased an old Legal Defender Conversion from Cap'n Jack off the Classifieds. It is chambered in 38 S&W. I have an Uberti 1851 that is laying around that I'm going to put this conversion on. Do you think that the heeled bullet will work with the 38 S&W? Is it close enough to get by with the 38 Short Colt loaded with a heeled bullet? Or, since i have a spare barrel around here as well, would I be better off to just reline one of the the barrels in 357 diameter?

Preacher Clint

[Pony Racer]

PC, I have a set of 51 C&B converted to 38 cartridge and another being done.

Both sets got the barrel liner treatment to shoot 38spl.  Just makes things easier.

Had I been a reloader with decent experience back when i got my first set converted I might have stayed with unlined barrels and got the heeled 38's for short or long colt but with one set converted and an 1873 that shoots same 38spl loads as I load for pistols I did not want to jerry with two different die set-ups.

Getting a barrel lined is actually one of the cheapest steps in a conversion.  And with my smith we did it and kept original sights.

PR