OK, Now that I've decided to convert my Navy...

Coyote Hunter · January 15, 2009, 03:54:42 PM

After many questions to all the nice folks here and on the Remington board, I've decided to convert my Uberti 1851 instead of buying a new gun or converting another remmie. Just a couple more questions please. I see R&D and Kirst at Buffalo Arms. The R&D with a loading gate is $50.00 cheaper than the kirst, but you must drill two holes. I don't see anything about drilling with the Kirst. Can someont tell me which is easier. Is the R&D worth the difference in price?

Thanks for your patience ya'll $:-\$

Fox Creek Kid · January 15, 2009, 04:32:13 PM

If you want an historically CORRECT RM Navy ring then R&D is the ONLY game in town. Then again, for a CORRECT ejector the side of the barrel needs milled. Kirst makes great stuff. It's just that with his work historicity is secondary. I'm not criticizing Kirst, it's just that he has chosen a different approach. However, for the life of me I cannot understand why a man with his talent does not get a manufacturer's license and start making authentic conversions because with R&D's bad cust. serv. he could clean up shop!!

Hoof Hearted · January 15, 2009, 07:46:40 PM

Quote from: Fox Creek Kid on January 15, 2009, 04:32:13 PM
If you want an historically CORRECT RM Navy ring then R&D is the ONLY game in town. Then again, for a CORRECT ejector the side of the barrel needs milled. Kirst makes great stuff. It's just that with his work historicity is secondary. I'm not criticizing Kirst, it's just that he has chosen a different approach. However, for the life of me I cannot understand why a man with his talent does not get a manufacturer's license and start making authentic conversions because with R&D's bad cust. serv. he could clean up shop!!

I speak with Walt quite a bit and believe it or not he lives in a town house and really doesn't have a shop! He loves the conversion era stuff and enjoys the design aspect of this whole thing!

He out sources most everything and his current relationship is with Jay Strite to build conversions.

I will tell you that the upcoming Thuer is supposed to be correct and because it is a "drop-in" it is right up Walt's alley.

I tend to view the Kirst stuff (after refinishing and tweaking) as an interesting "gunsmith" conversion. And one that works extremely well for the casual buyer.

HH

Flint · January 15, 2009, 08:09:04 PM

The R&D requires two holes to be drilled and tapped. (They sell/rent a fixture, but you need a long tap and a long drill to get past the length of the cylinder arbor.)

The backplate is solidly attached to the frame. The Kirst is held in by the cylinder and a "saddle" at the frame to prevent rotation. As the Kirst is now CCH, it looks better than his earlier blued ones. I like the R&D firing pin retainer better, it's a threaded ring, the Kirst firing pin is staked in, you might have to send it back to Kirst if it ever needs repair. The R&D gate springs seem wimpy, the gate drifts open when shoooting, unless the problem has been addressed since I got mine. I have both, and I like both, but for the above comments. Of course, one could screw the Kirst on if the fancy occured to you.

Hoof Hearted · January 15, 2009, 08:24:06 PM

Quote from: Flint on January 15, 2009, 08:09:04 PM
The R&D requires two holes to be drilled and tapped. (They sell/rent a fixture, but you need a long tap and a long drill to get past the length of the cylinder arbor.)

The backplate is solidly attached to the frame. The Kirst is held in by the cylinder and a "saddle" at the frame to prevent rotation. As the Kirst is now CCH, it looks better than his earlier blued ones. I like the R&D firing pin retainer better, it's a threaded ring, the Kirst firing pin is staked in, you might have to send it back to Kirst if it ever needs repair. The R&D gate springs seem wimpy, the gate drifts open when shoooting, unless the problem has been addressed since I got mine. I have both, and I like both, but for the above comments. Of course, one could screw the Kirst on if the fancy occured to you.

I ended up with the '61 that was on here for sale a while back (has an R&D) in it. The pistol would not fire, the conversion ring was loose and it would bind on cocking. The screws backed themselves out of the recoil shield. Simple fix with locktite. The cylinder was long and I shortened the barrel extension, this cured the binding. But (BIG BUT) the firing pin was burred on both sides and would stick when fired causing drag and the pistol would not index. Problem was the hammer on the Pietta has the notch cut in the face for parking between percussion caps on the cylinder and it is much harder than the soft firing pin. I welded up the hammer face and redressed it then I deburred the hammer end of the firing pin and hardened it with Kasenit. This "soft" firing pin that R&D uses has been a problem many times before

Even though the Kirst firing pin is staked in I have never had an issue with one (I have seen about a hundred).

HH

Sgt. Jake · January 15, 2009, 09:28:01 PM

H H ,all intersted. I had Happy Trails http://thesmithshop.com/ Make me replacement firing pins,properly heat treated,for R&D cylinders. At the time this past June,Hap made up some extra sets to add to his stock.if you are in need of replacements try contacting him,solved my problems. Adios Sgt.Jake

Fox Creek Kid · January 16, 2009, 01:18:01 AM

Quote from: Hoof Hearted on January 15, 2009, 07:46:40 PM
I speak with Walt quite a bit and believe it or not he lives in a town house and really doesn't have a shop!...He out sources most everything and his current relationship is with Jay Strite to build conversions...

Well, that explains it then. I never knew that.

Lone Oak · January 16, 2009, 09:18:28 AM

Coyote Hunter,

When I decided to convert my '51 Uberti, I wanted it to be a conversion such as what a frontier gunsmith may have done. I had a set of plans from Anvil Enterprises http://www.anvilenterprises.com/ and instead of turning down my percussion cylinder, I went with R&D's gated conversion. I made the ejector according to the plans on Anvil's info. It may not be exactly like an RM conversion done at the Colt factory but my theory is: A frontier conversion may not be the same as a RM/Colt conversion and until someone shows me ALL frontier gunsmith converted '51 Navy's, they cannot say it's not "period correct"...period! Just my thoughts. If you need the drilling fixture and long drill/tap for the R&D, I have them. I don't think they come with the ones from Buffalo Arms.

Lone Oak

John William McCandles · January 16, 2009, 11:49:36 AM

CH
If you decide to go with the R&D as we discussed you may want to take Lone Oaks offer and borrow the fixture, bit and tap. It would make things go a lot better.

JW

Coyote Hunter · January 16, 2009, 12:49:10 PM

OK, JW..I want period Correct, but I also was looking at a gunsmith conversion because, of corse, it IS going to be a conversion and not a "Colt" factory purchase. I was thinking of leaving the loading lever on it so I wouldn't have to cut off the latch. I was wondering if a Kirst ejector would work with an R&D cylinder.

I get a little nervous hearing about the firing pin problems. $200.00 plus for anything is a LOT of money to poor folks like me
and then having to put more money on firing pins makes me cautious.

Are the Uberti conversion navies historically correct?

Ive got the dragoon for sale in the classifieds

Fox Creek Kid · January 16, 2009, 12:54:28 PM

Quote from: Coyote Hunter on January 16, 2009, 12:49:10 PM...Are the Uberti conversion navies historically correct?...

No, the ring is wrong, but very few people know that.

Coyote Hunter · January 16, 2009, 01:25:05 PM

Thanks Fox Creek....

John William McCandles · January 16, 2009, 05:06:49 PM

CH
I doubt that my Cimarron Uberti 1860 R&M's are exact reproductions but they're nice and I like them.
Maybe you can check the prices on the Uberti Navy R&M's, I don't think they need to be exact. There were quite a few gunsmith and blacksmith conversions made on the frointier.
I've pretty much decided to buy another pair of '60 R&M's with 5 1/2" barrels in .44 Colt of course. Soon as I can get the funding together.

JW

Coyote Hunter · January 16, 2009, 06:17:50 PM

JW

Had a possible buyer on the dragoon, getting closer..

Hoof Hearted · January 16, 2009, 06:37:57 PM

Yes

The Kirst Ejector will work with any conversion (as long as there is a gate or port)

HH

John William McCandles · January 17, 2009, 09:00:09 AM

Quote from: Coyote Hunter on January 16, 2009, 06:17:50 PM
JW

Had a possible buyer on the dragoon, getting closer..

CH
Sounds good.
Looking forward to seeing eveyone tomorrow.

JW

Ottawa Creek Bill · January 21, 2009, 11:39:25 PM

Before anyone starts a conversion project you should spend the money and buy McDowell's book.

Yes I know right now it is a little pricey if you can find one on auction, but by the time you buy a pistol and the conversion parts to convert it, or have it converted you're spending a lot of money anyway.

By the book, you'll find the money well spent and it will answer all your questions about what is period correct and what is not, and show you the dimensions of the parts needed in finite details.

I used this book to make all the fixtures and set-ups for doing my conversions and every one of them whether it be a Colt Richards model 1, or a Remington conversion are period correct...the info is all there.

Bill

Flinch Morningwood · January 22, 2009, 06:19:56 AM

I've done the R&D conversion on my Pietta '51's and it is not that tough if you get the jig. If you have a bit of skill and like to "tinker" it can be a fairly enjoyable job. Having said that, I did have to adjust the hand on both pistols to get them to index correctly...but I like doing that kind of stuff.

As stated, the Kirst Ejector will work with the R&D conversion. My only tip is to bend the frame of the ejector slightly as, on mine at least, they were a bit loose when first installed...the bend snugged them up against the frame.

John William McCandles · January 22, 2009, 05:20:22 PM

CH;

I have a copy of McDowell's book that Ottawa Creek Bill metioned. Your welcome to borrowing it.

JW

Coyote Hunter · January 23, 2009, 01:15:33 PM

That would be great JW. I'm laying back a couple of guns I'm going to keep, and then sell, or trade some others. I've definently decided to convert or get a .38 navy. It would be fun loading up some BP loads and play with on the ole ranch. I'm gonna keep some .45 pistolas just because I love the round and am used to loading them.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to trade or sell my New Army Conversion and try to get a 7 1/2" old model colt from Cimmaron or a .45 Richards mason army.