Got My Cimarron 50-95 Centenial Model, Now What?

[Backstrap Bill]

I am going to start a thread about getting my rifle running, kinda along the lines of over on the Spencer Shooting Society when I got one of those carbines in 56-50.

The rifle arrives last July and it was beautiful.  Just one problem - the firing pin did not protrude from the bolt when the hammer fell.

I called Cimarron with a suggestion that I take the bolt apart & see if there were metal shavings inside that were binding the firing pin.  "Nope, ya gotta send it to our gunsmith or the warranty will be voided."  Rifle was on its was the next morning.  6 days later, I got a call from the gunsmith.  We talked about what symptoms I had experienced.  The very next day, he called back, explained what he had found (metal shavings in the bolt shroud), what he had done including a few extra things, and said the rifle would be on its way back the very same day!  It worked like a charm this time.

Bravo, step one accomplished!

[ndnchf]

Now what? - Go shooting!

After all that waiting and frustration, its time to make some smoke

[Wes Tancred]

In a discussion here some time ago, the question of binding of the firing pin in 1876 rifles came up. I don't think it would be excessively repetitive for me to re-post my comments on that topic:

Do not assess possible binding of the firing pin on the 1876, or any of the other toggle-link actions, without an empty or dummy cartridge chambered. Many of these rifles, especially newly manufactured examples with tight tolerances and no wear, will show binding of the firing pin extension when the action is fully closed on an empty chamber. The reason is that, without the cartridge case present, the extractor (which is under fairly strong spring tension) presses down against the extractor cut, in turn forcing the front of the bolt very slightly upward. This causes the firing pin extension to cant ever so slightly in its closely fitted bore in the receiver, making it bind.

With a cartridge case in place, the extractor is kept in an upward position, and can not bear down upon the extractor cut. If, under this condition, the firing pin extension still binds, then cleaning or polishing may be necessary.

[Backstrap Bill]

Wes, your post is right on the money.  I shoud have mentioned that I had primed a few cases.  None went "bang", two primers were not even dented, before the gun was sent back.  They all went "bang" with nice healthy indentation after I got the gun back.

[Backstrap Bill]

Cimarron lists the barrel of this rifle has 0.507" groove and 0.500" bore diameters.  I only slugged the muzzle end of the barrel, obtaining diameters that matched the published values.

I have two bullet moulds available.  The first is what I use in my Spencer, a RNFP from Rapine, the 512-350-T, which drops a 360 gr. 0.515 dia. bullet of 20:1 @ 700 degrees F.  The other is a Buffalo Arms 350 RNFP dropping a 352 gr. 0.509 dia. bullet of 20:1 at 700F.  I bought the Buff Arms mould at Quigley last summer.  If you have seen or used any of Paul Jones moulds, this one will remind you of his work both in terms of design and quality.  Both moulds give nice round bullets.

I waited for the C4 "Uberti" 50-95 dies to come out.  The people @ Buffalo Arms said these dies were made for the smaller groove & bore dimensions of this particular barrel.  It took 4 months, but was well worth the wait.  The neck expanding plug matches the unsized bullet diameter of 0.509".  The seating die applies a taper crimp.

Just for fun, I made up a dummy round with each style of unsized bullets.  I wanted to see if they would chamber.  They went in slick as a whistle, came out the same way.  Nice since I don't yet have a 0.509 sizing die.

[ndnchf]

I went and checked my new Taylors Uberti 76  .50-95. The groove diameter on mine is .513".  I find it odd that Uberti has changed the groove diameter.  I bought mine new in late November directly from Taylors.  I just got my c4 Uberti dies from BACO last week.  I checked the expander plug and it is .509"    It seems either Uberti has opened up the groove size on the newest production or mine just got cut a little deeper.

i don't mind the .513" size, its more mainstream.  I'll just have to get a .511" or .512" expander.   

[Backstrap Bill]

The first loading was done with Elephant 2F and SPG lube applied via a 0.512 sizing die. Powder charges were loaded through a 2' drop tube and by volume were 60 gr. for the longer Rapine bullet, 65 gr. for the Buf Arms.  Primers were Federal large rifle; flash holes were drilled out to 0.096. Cases were reformed & turned Starline 50-90 purchased from Buf Arms.  A 0.060 thick 0.515 dia. Walter's wad was used under the bullets and about 0.010 compression was applied.  Cartridge lengths were 2.261 for the Buf Arms and 2.259 for the Rapine slug, when bullets were seated to the crimp grooves.  Ten rounds were made with each bullet.

5 rounds of each load were fired, cleaning between shots with a tight patch soaked in 1:2 Ballistol & water, followed by a dry patch.  No leading was observed.  The remaining shells were fired in pairs, cleaning between as above.  Again no leading was observed.   There was no blow-by past the shoulder of the cases.  There was little evidence of a grease star on the muzzle, indicating lube was running out somewhere short of the muzzle.

Sights were gradually adjusted until the remaining rounds vertically centered on a 10" bull @ 100 yards, and about 6" left of center.  It looks like a 6" group could be made to cover the last 10 shots.

I had been expecting to see a substantial increase in case diameter after firing, given the small powder charges I was able to load.  But, the cases were only blown out about 6 thousandths by firing.

Next chore will be to finish fireforming the other 30 new cases, as soon as it gets above zero again.  

[Backstrap Bill]

The remaining 30 never-fired cases were loaded as above with the Buff Arms bullet.  They were fired in 3 shot strings with cleaning done as above between strings.  The barrel was then inspected for lead.  There was a moderate amount of lead deposited in the last 8" of the barrel.  The lead was removed with JB Bore Paste, a non-imbedding compound; this was only about a 10 minute job.  Unfortunately, any 'seasoning' of the bore was also removed.

The next experiment will be to try both bullets with my homemade Phlegm Lube, named after the shooter who gave me the recipe, Phlegm Boy.  Phlegm Lube is less viscous than SPG and melts at about the same temperature as SPG.  I've used this lube in cowboy action matches for years without cleaning between the 8-10 shot strings common in CAS.  Phlegm Lube has worked well in rifles with barrels ranging from 18-28 inches.  I'll also try using a grease cookie made of my homemade shotgun lube under the Buff Arms bullet.  This is a hard black powder lube, meaning that it won't flow through a lubrisizer.

I'll post the lube recipes once I have figured out the right combination.

[Backstrap Bill]

Case trimming: Before using the cases for their 2nd firing, I want to trim and then anneal them.  I have one of Ken Light's excellent case annealing machines, he made me a disk for the 50-95.  Now that Ken has the dimensions, getting this disk should be a snap.  When I measured all 50 of the once-fired cases, I came up with 2 distinct groups by length: 2/3 of the cases averaged 1.914" and the remaining ones averaged about 1.929.   I'll trim them all to 1.912, the shortest case in the lot.

The information below about equipment to do the trimming is copied for a post I did several years ago on the Spencer Shooting Society bulletin board"

"I talked to the folks at RCBS about a 50 caliber conversion for my Trim Pro.  No dice, the tool just can't handle a rim size that large; neither can the Trip Pro 2 or the second model tool that uses collets to hold the cases.  But, there is good news.  Their original case trimmer, Model 09369, will work with the addtion of a conversion kit.  I found a RCBS 09369 on Ebay, got it for $37.  The conversion kit for the 09369 came in a RCBS plastic die box. It consists of a parts list for the trimmer, a collet large enough for the 56-50 rim, a 50 cal pilot, a new cutter big enough to handle anything up to about .60", and new screws to attach the collet holder to the trimmer base.  RCBS part number for the conversion kit is 57180.  I called RCBS & asked them for the 50-70 conversion kit for the 9369 case trimmer which is availabe in RCBS's "Legacy Series".  The kit was put together from separate parts & put into a die box.  I think the cost was around $60 including shipping.  Kinda pricey, but, hey, who wants to put a price on having fun with guns any way."

[ndnchf]

BB - Another option is to use the Lyman Universal trimmer.  While the description says "...up to .458 caliber", 30 seconds with a dremel grinder allows them to handle the .50 cases effortlessly.  I just did some .50-95s in mine last night.  Its around $60-$65 from most dealers, like here:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=795961

[Backstrap Bill]

ndnchf,  glad to know there's another option for trimming.  Having more than one way to skin the cat keeps it interesting.

Ol' Backstrap has hit a snag with the 50-95 project.    While sizing the once-fired cases, I discovered a problem with the sizing die.  Either the reamer went too far into the die body or the bottom was not ground down enough; the cases stop about 1/8" short of the shoulder inside the die.  The die is properly adjusted & using the correct shell holder (die bottom is in firm contact w/the shell holder).  I'll call Dave at 4D in the morning.

I talked to Dave & we talked critical dimensions.  We both ended up scratching our heads - might be the die, might be the chamber.  I'll be making a chamber cast to send Dave along with a fired case and the die.

Ah yes, the oxen are slow, but the earth is patient.

[ndnchf]

Bill,

When did you get your dies?  I got mine about 3 weeks ago from BACO.  I had them backordered and a new shipment finally came in from CH4D.  If yours were of the same batch, I'd imagine they are the same as mine.  I just resized some fired Ten-X .50-95 brass and they worked fine. 

One thought came to mind that you might look at if you haven't already.  Is it possible that the decapping pin is loose or bent?  If so, it may be hitting the bottom of the case rather than going into the flash hole.  That would stop the case going into the dies by about 1/4". Have you deburred the inside of the flash holes?  Burrs could be preventing decapping pin from going in smoothily.  Try removing the decapping pin and then resize.

[Backstrap Bill]

ndnchf,

I appreciate your suggestions and wish they'd pan out.  Sometimes a fella (or gal) misses something obvious like that.  Unfortunately, I am "hard down" on the shell holder.  I even tried a different shell holder, a Lyman X-22.  No dice.

I believe my dies came from the same batch as yours, got them about a month ago from BACO.  Dave @ 4D says he has found that a fair number of Italian-cut chambers in more than a few calibers don't spec out the same.  Makes me suspicious of the chambering job.  We'll find out this weekend.

I did invent something that will let me continue through at least 1 more loading.  I made a collet that fits over the case, just ahead of the web & then swaged the bottom 1/4" of each case using the 4-jaw chuck on my father's lathe to apply the pressure.  I can get the cases into the chamber that way, but I won't recommend that to anyone else to try.  If the 4D die bodies had not been hardened, I might even try to modify the die cavity myself to match the chamber cast I'll make Saturday (I ain't gonna do that, no way).

This weekend, I'll cast the chamber and the die cavity using Cerrosafe & see what I learn.  I'll also fire one of the cartridges again so I have a case that has formed to the chamber.

Remember, if this were easy, we'd call it "golf."

[ndnchf]

Bill,

I misundertood, I thought your cases stopped 1/4" short of going in all the way.  If it helps any, I can take measurements off one of my fired cases to compare with your chamber cast.  If the die body is just a few thou small, you might be able to polish it out a little with a poured lead lap and lapping compound.  Sorry to hear your are having all these difficulties, it definately ain't golf....

[Backstrap Bill]

Having problems getting resized cases to chamber?  This may help.

The sizing die/chamber problem is clearly shown when comparing casts of the sizing die body to either a fired case or to a cast of the rifle chamber.  My chamber has a much steeper and distinct shoulder than the sizing die.  There are 3 factors which combine to make chambering of cartridges difficult after sizing in my die.  1)  After sizing a fired case, about 0.10" of the neck just ahead of the shoulder has not been sized, leaving the diameter of this part of the neck 0.010" larger than the rest of the neck.  2)  The different shoulder angles means the die does not set back the shoulder of fired cases.  3)  The diameter of my fired cases just ahead of the web is 0.005" larger than the sizing die at the same point.

I am certain 4D made their dies to the dimensions they were furnished by Uberti.  4D has been making dies for odd or obsolete cartridges successfully for many years.  Rather than get tied up in the Blame Game with Uberti, I will have 4D make me a custom sizing die made to match my chamber.  I will also alert Cimarron about the problem.

Using the sizing die followed by two collets I have made, I am able to reduce the diameters of my cases at the base of the neck and just ahead of the web enough to keep the gun in service.  The only thing I cannot do is to set the shoulders back a few thousandths – at some point, the cases will not chamber because of the lack of shoulder set back.  Now it's back to learning more about the 50-95 while 4D cuts and heat treats the new die.

So, if you experience problems chambering resized cases in your rifle, check for the above situation.

I should have mentioned the custom die will cost $100 & take about 4-5 months.  I don't mind the cash outlay for two reasons -- I've learned a lot and enjoy problem solving, and a hundred bucks is still cheaper than golf   .

[ndnchf]

Bill,

Glad you were able to figure out the problem.  You should definately contact Cimarron and show them your findings.  It is nice that CH4D will make a custom sizer for you, hope its not too painfu$$.

[larryo_1]

ndnchf
I couldn't help but feel that I should put in my 2 bits worth here.  I got a 45-75 and had the same problems till I sent RCBS two of my fired cases and they made a Trim/Sizing die to match the fired cases.  Now what I do is adjust my FL die to neck size only after going through that trim die and have never had any problems.  Got an idea that when you get your special die you will find the same thing.   

[Backstrap Bill]

Larryo_1,

We're of like mind.  Neck size until, or if ever, cases are hard to chamber, then adjust the die to set the shoulder back a couple thousandths and resume neck sizing.  These cases ain't cheap, gotta make 'em last as long as I am above the sod.

[larryo_1]

Backstrap Bill:
Yep, that is what I do.  I use 348 brass, Starline brass and once used some Bertram brass but since one split the first shot, I have not got anymore of that stuff because of that and the price.  The 348 brass is tougher'n wang leather and the Starline brass is not quite as tough but really good stuff  besides the price is right for both types--so far that is!  Yeh, I just smoke the neck and then adjust.   

[Backstrap Bill]

   The project is weighing anchor again.  I tested grease cookies using the BACO and Rapine bullets.  I now have the correct full length sizing die and a solid bullet from an original 1876 bullet mould.

Here is what I have learned.  Grease cookies first – the experiment eliminated the leading, but accuracy became nonexistent with groups of 2' at 100 yards.  The stubby bullets just couldn't stabilize. I think the card wads were sticking to the base of the bullets, even though there was a wad between the bullet base & grease cookie.  

I compared the original bullet to the cavity of Lyman 515193.  They match, right down to the beveled base & 3 grease grooves.  Cast of 20:1 @ 750F the bullets weigh 343 grains.  I will test this bullet with both my Phlegm Lube and SPG.  If you are going to use Lyman's recommended top punch with 515139, you will have to modify it's shape with epoxy or it will gouge the bullets big time.

Dave at CH4D measured the casts I sent.  Dave was given dimensions for two different 50-95 chambers.  He said that my chamber dimensions match those of the 'earlier' Uberti chamber aka the 'steep shoulder' chamber.  Dave is not making dies for this chamber any more because Uberti changed to the more traditional shoulder chamber.  Fortunately, Dave has a few of the sizing dies for the steep shoulder chambers and I was able to obtain one.  FYI, my rifle is SN xx521.  I still have the sizing die for the traditional chamber, if anybody wants it, I'll let it go for a fraction of what it cost – email me.

I'll size my cases with the correct die, load some of the 515139 bullets and head for the range.