1860 or 1866 for Johnny Reb headin' west

[Logan Hawke]

My character is based on an ex Confederate soldier heading out west after the war.  I really want historical accuracy and was just curious if I should go with the 1860 saying that I picked it up in the war or the 1866 that I would have purchased after the war??

I would also love to hear the pros/cons betweenthese two rifles.

[Forty Rod]

I'm working on a book right now with a small group of former Confederate cavalrymen heading west immediately after Lee's surrender.  They are taking a dozen Henrys captured just days before the end from a civilian wagon train.  I avoided mentioning if they were to be consigned to any military unit.

BTW, they are kept carefully hidden until they are well away from Virginia and not flashed around until after they leave St. Louis and start off across the "Big Lonesome".  Saves a lot of uncomfortable explanations if they are found with them.

[Galloway]

Maybe you headed west because they burt down your farm and left you with nothing. In which case maybe you liked the new winchester but could only afford the henry. 

[Henry4440]

John E. Parsons  published the results of his research in THE FIRST WINCHESTER in 1955. On page 59, Parsons stated, "...officers of the company ‑noted that the first two carbines of the new model were  sold to H.G. Litchfield of Omaha Nebraska, on August 31, 1867, for $34 each..."
So the first '66 were  available in the middle of 1867.I think that you should go with the Henry, when you start heading west after the war.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Unless you took out a bank "withdrawl", all you could really afford would be a used singleshot carbine, or if you were lucky at cards, maybe a Spencer?

$34 was a lotta loot in those days, maybe a coupla months pay; - if you had a job.  If there was a strong GAR presence where you were, you might not even have a job.  Thats why a number of ex-rebs took the owlhoot trail.

[Major 2]

Thought I don't use the Ex Confederate vocation ..I do use the Henry in my Originals Impression (NCOWS)

Ex-Union Vol. of Cavalry...Scouting for RR right of ways...

I have owned both a 66  and 3 Henry's ( 66 was SR Carbine 38 Spcl. I owned in the Mid-eighties no issues and a nice gun )

Ah... but the Henry's  My current are a Military & and Iron Frame... great shooters a little front heavy but dead nuts accrate.
No issues either ..but then however, should a jam happen though its easy to clear with the exposed follower.
Down side is the little suffle needed to allow the Follower to pass your hand ( but a spacer stick solves that  )
Not a quick gun for on timer reloads. But then I'm not gaming.

Current 66's have the Loading gate part breakage issue .. Uberti may have addressed the problem by now though, also it's solveable with an after market part from VTI .

[Dusty Morningwood]

A Henry and a pair of 51 Navies.   

[Fingers McGee]

A Henry and a pair of 51 Navies.   

Or '61 Navies - or better yet, a pair of Rigdon, Ansley & Co. Augusta Revolvers.

Liberated a pair of Colt's New Model Navy Pistols, one of them Henry Repeating Rifles and 1000 rds of ammunition when our Cavalry unit (Co, K,  3rd Texas) ambushed a Yankee supply train during the Tennessee campaign.  We had been hopin to stumble accross a Yankee camp or something so we could get ourselves some food.  Hadn't eaten in two days.  Only the horses had full bellies after grazing in a pasture.  Anyhow, me and my brothers, Gustavus and Lycurgus were scoutin ahead of the column when we heard this Yankee supply train trying to get through to their lines un-noticed.  They didnt' make it.  Lycurgus skedaddled back to the column and told the Captain about the wagons, and he planned out how we'd ambush them.  Caught them northern boys completely off guard.  They only got a couple shot off afore we had them caught up.  They had more food, guns and ammunition than we had seen in months.  Coats, hats, and best of all, new shoes and boots too.  We loaded up as much as we could carry on our horses, and still get around.  The rest we sent back to the brigade so's the rest of the Texas boys could get their share.  Picked up the Augusta revolvers form a suttler from Atlanta around the same time.  Had to trade almost 5 pounds of coffee, 5 pounds of sugar, and six tins of beef I got off the Yankee supply wagon for them.

TW Jarvis; Sgt, Co K 3rd Texas Cavalry

[Bristow Kid]

Being a gorilla fighter I liberated my Henry from a Yankee that didnt have any use for it any more along with a nice pair of 58' remmies.  Then headed for the western territories after the war by way of the owl hoot trail.

[Logan Hawke]

Thanks for all the advice and comments...please keep them coming because this is getting interesting!!

I am carrying the 1858's because my character just likes the extra heft of the '58's although I do plan on picking up a colt (probably '51) and say that was what I carried in the beginning of the war before I aquired the '58's.

If I do end up using the Henry it will be something that was liberated from one of those yankees or somehow aquired from the north. I really like the winchester because of the forearm...not so sure about the Henry because of the lack of a forearm but it would probably fit my character better and those of you that have them will probably say that not having the forearm is no big deal.

[Ransom Gaer]

I have a pair of 1860 Armies I liberated from a couple of Yankees.  They didn't need them anymore.  Also liberated a Henry from one of them too.  At matches I dress as a Missouri Guerilla complete with Guerilla shirt.  Watch the movie "Ride With the Devil.  At the end of the movie the character Dutchie Rodel has a Henry.  Also at one of the clubs I use to shoot with up in Cheyenne WY one of the members of the club has the alias William Clark Quantrill.  I have shot with him a couple of times.  I can honestly say that I rode with Quantrill.

Something to consider about the Henry is that it has more style points.  I use the stick in the magazine and don't have to deal with the Henry Hop.  I have a '66 Winchester also.  It is a nice rifle, but I prefer my Henry.

The lack of a forearm is a disadvantage of the Henry, but I deal with it.  At times I will use a glove other times, not.  Depends on whether I remember to bring it.  The barrel can get VERY hot at times, at least when you use BP in it.

Ransom Gaer

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Here are some numbers that may help you decide. There were only a total of about 14,000 Henrys produced in the entire production run from 1860 until 1866. Of those, the government bought around 18%, the rest were civillian sales. So if you 'liberated' one from a government employee, you were pretty lucky to have come across one. If you bought it legally, the retail price of a Henry in 1862 was $42 for the standard model. That was a lot of money in those days.

The production numbers for the Model 1866 Winchester were 2,337 in 1866, 764 in 1867, 4,189 in 1868, and 9,747 in 1869. Production picked up in 1870 with 23,010 produced, 35,656 produced in 1871, and 21,599 produced in 1872. Production dropped in 1873 and 1874 with 8,616 and 6,636 produced in those two years. Production really dropped in 1875 to only 926 rifles as sales of the model 1873 took off.

I have no figure for the cost of the Model 1866, but it was easier to manufacture than the Henry, so it may well have cost less. The machining of the barrel and magazine of the Henry from one solid bar of steel was more time consuming and costly than machining a barrel and separate tubular magazine on the '66. That is true today too, and is one reason the modern Henrys cost more than the modern 66s.

Clearly, getting ahold of either model in the 1860s or early 1870s made one a bit unusual. There were not a whole lot of them around. Much more likely a disenfranchised Confererate vet would have gone west with his muzzle loader.

I too use a filler stick in my Henry when I shoot it, so I don't do the Henry Hop either. I don't find the lack of a forearm to be much of a handicap, except on a hot summer day, when it really heats up from my Black Powder loads. I always have a glove handy in my cart.

[Logan Hawke]

Much more likely a disenfranchised Confererate vet would have gone west with his muzzle loader.

I have considered this and will still end up purchasing an enfield musket...so I might be able to dabble into civil war reenacting also. But it would be kinda hard to shoot a SASS match with it. The more I read from all of you the more I am leaning towards the Henry.

Also...what is the "Henry Hop"??

[Fingers McGee]

It was in September of 1864 near Campbellton, GA.  There was this Yankee column that consisted of about 60 Federal Cavalry driving a herd of cattle and leading two wagonloads of plunder & supplies.  My other younger brother Epaminondas; or Pem as he was called; lost cotrol of his horse and ended up right in the midst of them - without so much as a pistol to defend himself; having dropped his when his horse bolted.  It's a wonder that some Yankee didn't shoot him off his horse.  After it was all said and done, we ended up taking a dozen or so prisoners - the rest of them Yankees having lit out for their own lines - 30 or 40 captured rifles; mostly Henry's and Spencer's; and a couple wagon loads of goods.  Them Yankee Cavalry boys were sure outfitted, way better'n us.  Some of them were carrying 2 of Mr. Colt's pistols on them in addition to them bran spankin new Henry repeaters.  It's a wonder we got the better of them.  We musta just scared the bejesus out of them when we rode in on them a whoopin and a hollerin.  I was offered a couple of the .44/100 Army models; but chose instead to take two of the New Model Navy pistols in .36/100 caliber.  They don't use as much powder or lead, and are just as accurate and deadly in a fight.

T.W. Jarvis, Sgt, Co K, 3rd Texas Cavalry

[Major 2]

Henry Hop as some call it = when the Magazine follower reaches your extended forehand ( remember no wooden forwstock )
at or about 5 rounds left in the Magazine.

You adjust your hold (Henry Hop) so the follower may pass and keep pressure on the remaining 5 or so rounds in the magazine

Here is the stick I and others mention ...simple and easy (  I use a faux Ivory stick, But a Dowel will do too ...If you get a Henry , I'll made you one if you like )

[Logan Hawke]

Henry Hop as some call it = when the Magazine follower reaches your extended forehand ( remember no wooden forwstock )
at or about 5 rounds left in the Magazine.

You adjust your hold (Henry Hop) so the follower may pass and keep pressure on the remaining 5 or so rounds in the magazine

Here is the stick I and others mention ...simple and easy (  I use a faux Ivory stick, But a Dowel will do too ...If you get a Henry , I'll made you one if you like )

Thanks for the explanation! I can now see where that might be an inconvenience with out the stick. I appreciate your offer to make one...if I do end up with the Henry I will definitely keep it in mind.

[Major 2]

There is one for sale in the classifieds    ....just a heads up no dog in the fight

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

There is a book!  Or at least a chapter in one.

GUNS OF THE OLD WEST, Charles Edward Chapel, 1961, Ganis & Harris, New York.  LOC #61-10978, Chapter XI titled " Johnny Reb kept his guns: Confederate Guns in the West.  (sorry; no visible ISBN)

By the terms of surrender, officers kept their sidearms.  According to the author, the men used their ingenuity to satisfy neccessity.

[Major 2]

There is one for sale in the classifieds    ....just a heads up no dog in the fight

Hmm....my bad here it tiz

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,24000.0.html

[Logan Hawke]

There is a book!  Or at least a chapter in one.

GUNS OF THE OLD WEST, Charles Edward Chapel, 1961, Ganis & Harris, New York.  LOC #61-10978, Chapter XI titled " Johnny Reb kept his guns: Confederate Guns in the West.  (sorry; no visible ISBN)

By the terms of surrender, officers kept there sidearms.  According to the author, the men used their ingenuity to satisfy neccessity.

WOW...believe it or not I actually have that book! I haven't read it since I bought it...I mainly just bought it to add to my collection as reference material. Funny how things work out...

So pardon me while I reference that chapter right now.

Much Obliged Sir Charles!!