.44 Henry sectioned cartridge pic

[w44wcf]

Decided to sacrifice one of my Henry cartridges to get a cutaway view. This historic cartridge has more powder room than one might think looking at the outside of a standard cartridge due to the heel type bullet which intrudes into the case only about 1/2 that of a standard .44 bullet and the rim fire type case.

Interestingly, it actually has slightly more powder capacity than the .44 Special case loaded with a 200 gr. bullet(!) .



stats:
"H" headstamped cartridge (Winchester)

BULLET........
weight: 200 grs.
length: .60"
diameter: in front of the grease groove - .427" average
diameter: below the grease groove and in front of the heel - .438" average

HEEL........
diameter: .417"
length: .16"

CASE........
outside diameter: .442"
length: .92"
side wall thickness: .015"
bottom thickness: .03"

CARTRIDGE O.A.L. 1.35"

POWDER.........
charge: 28 grs. by weight / polished appearance
analysis: 20 grs. 3F  +  8 grs (30%) 4F
compression: .08"

Happy New Year!
Wishing the pards a healthy, happy and prosperous 2009!

w44wcf

[Peter M. Eick]

Thanks for the picture and cutting one open!

How did you get through the priming compound?  I would have been very nervous there.

[Hoof Hearted]

BULLET........
weight: 200 grs.
diameter: .427"
length: .60"

HEEL........
diameter: .417"
length: .16"

CASE........
outside diameter: .442"
length: .92"
side wall thickness: .015"
bottom thickness: .03"

cartridge o.a.l. 1.35"

powder charge: 28 grs. by weight

Well ya went and done it

I wonder if the value is now higher like a "factory cut away"

The powder capacity is a bit deceiving as it is a "folded head" case and the heel design takes up a lot less case capacity than an inside lubed projectile.

I do have a question though;
Are you sure the bullet diameter stated above is correct at .427?
I'm quite familiar with the design concept and it should be fairly close to the case diameter at .442 as that is the sole premise behind the heel bullet design.

Now I guess I have to get my heel loading "picture" article posted on here

Thanks for the sacrifice!
HH

[w44wcf]

Thanks for the picture and cutting one open!
How did you get through the priming compound?  I would have been very nervous there.

Peter, I sectioned it with a hacksawand finished with a fine file, so I wasn't too concerned with the priming compound. Thankfully, no problem was encountered.

Thanks W44WCF!  I was curious as to what the bullet looked like, too.  I just started reloading heeled bullets for my '60 Army conversions, so am curious as to what an original/authentic bullet looks like.  Is that a solid/flat base, hollow base, cupped base...?

Seth, The bullet is flat based with a little radius on the edge.

I wonder if the value is now higher like a "factory cut away"

The powder capacity is a bit deceiving as it is a "folded head" case and the heel design takes up a lot less case capacity than an inside lubed projectile.

I do have a question though;
Are you sure the bullet diameter stated above is correct at .427?
HH

HH, If it was a factory cut away it would be worth some $$, but since it's not, the original value has decreased substantially.
Yes, as you said, the powder capacity is a bit deceiving.  It actually holds a little bit more than a .44 Special case.
Thank you for your question regarding the bullet diameter. I double checked and found that it actually has two different diameters forward of the case mouth. I have since modified my original post.

Sincerely,
w44wcf

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Wow, great photo! Mind if I copy it and refer to it occasisionally? I only have one 44 Henry cartridge, so I did not want to sacrifice it by cutting it open.

[Fox Creek Kid]

The groove diam. of the Henry rifle was circa. 0.440.

[Willie Dixon]

thanks for the sacrifice, that helps tremendously looking at the cartridge.

[w44wcf]

DJ,
Yes, please do.  Glad to hear that you will get some use from it.

FCK,
Yes, I remember that. The bullet was a bit out of round on that portion, from .440" to .436" which could have come from handling over the past century or so.

Seth, Petter, Hoof Hearted, Willie,
You are most welcome.

w44wcf   

[Hoof Hearted]

Seth, Petter, Willie,
You are most welcome.

w44wcf   

OK, I am officially non important

[w44wcf]

Thanks for the sacrifice!
HH

HH,
My apologies.  Sorry I missed you. It was late in the evening and I was getting pretty tired..........
Please reread my previous post.

w44wcf

[Hoof Hearted]

HH,
My apologies.  Sorry I missed you. It was late in the evening and I was getting pretty tired..........
Please reread my previous post.

w44wcf

No Problemo, pard!
I was just rying to be funny (hard to see me smiling on the computer)

HH

[KCSO]

This is why I always thought the henry rifle should have been chambered in 44 Special as this case will duplicate the 44 rimfire almost exactly. 

[Hoof Hearted]

This is why I always thought the henry rifle should have been chambered in 44 Special as this case will duplicate the 44 rimfire almost exactly. 

Well not really, although it's longer length would feed in the enlarged action of the reproduction rifles.
The Russian case emulates the spent Henry closer in length (but the Henry is smaller in diameter), the 44 Colt holds about the same capacity when loaded with a heel base bullet (less bullet protruding into the case).

The closest we can come is a 45 Colt Henry, sleeved chamber, .453 or so straight chamber. Flat nose "Henry" .451 outside lubed heel base bullet in a 44 Colt case, filled with BP. Works wonderfully and a HOOT to shoot

Ottawa Creek Bill did all the R&D work and if you search here you'll find a bunch of info in old posts.

You could do the same thing with a 44-40 barrel, sleeved and rechambered in 44 special if that is your caliber of choice

HH

[w44wcf]

Interesting discussion. Ottawa Creek Bill did a very interesting conversion.

Historically speaking......
factory loadings
.44 Colt - 23 grs. - 210 gr. bullet
.44 S&W American - 25 grs. - 205 gr. bullet
.44 S&W Russian - 23 grs. - 246 gr. bullet
.44 S&W Special - 26 grs. - 246 gr. bullet

w44wcf

[Hoof Hearted]

Interesting discussion. Ottawa Creek Bill did a very interesting conversion.

Historically speaking......
factory loadings
.44 Colt - 23 grs. - 210 gr. bullet
.44 S&W American - 25 grs. - 205 gr. bullet
.44 S&W Russian - 23 grs. - 246 gr. bullet
.44 S&W Special - 26 grs. - 246 gr. bullet

w44wcf

w44wcf

Your "historical" loadings above do not specify whether they are inside lubed bullets or outside lubed bullets. Do you know? I'm interested because my findings of "non-historical" (my loading) with Heel Base (outside lubed) is different.

Thanks
HH

[Adirondack Jack]

Thanks for the very nice report.

My guess on the bullet diameter is that perhaps one or more cycles of oxidation and cleaning over the many years has left it somewhat shrunk from what it was originally.  From the appearance of the surface, it looks like it was once "bloomed" with white oxide?

[w44wcf]

Hoof Hearted,

That data was taken from the Winchester catalog dated 1910.
Outside luricated bullets (heeled) were used in the .44 American and .44 Colt.
One wonders, why only 23 grs. in the .44 Colt factory cartridge when it has more capacity than the .44 American(?).
Awhile back, I dissected an early .44 Colt to find out why.  Turns out that there was a wad under the heeled bullet.

A check of an 1890's UMC catalog shows:
.44 American - 23 grs b.p. - 218 gr. bullet
.44 Russian - 23 grs. b.p. - 256 gr. bullet
.44 Colt - 23 grs. b.p. - 210 gr. bullet

AJ,
You are most welcome.  I have owned that particular .44 Henry cartridge for only about 10 years in its current condition, so, as you indicated, the bullet may have been cleaned up sometime in the past with a possible loss of diameter.

w44wcf
 
 

[Hoof Hearted]

Hoof Hearted,

That data was taken from the Winchester catalog dated 1910.
Outside luricated bullets (heeled) were used in the .44 American and .44 Colt.
One wonders, why only 23 grs. in the .44 Colt factory cartridge when it has more capacity than the .44 American(?).
Awhile back, I dissected an early .44 Colt to find out why.  Turns out that there was a wad under the heeled bullet.

A check of an 1890's UMC catalog shows:
.44 American - 23 grs b.p. - 218 gr. bullet
.44 Russian - 23 grs. b.p. - 256 gr. bullet
.44 Colt - 23 grs. b.p. - 210 gr. bullet

w44wcf 

My assumption is the Colt load might be "reduced" in velocity to make it more "stock sight friendly" in metallic cartridge conversions.

It is still my feeling that to "emulate" a 44 Henry in a current production firearm we need to use the heeled .451 bullet and the 44 Colt case. The Henry rifle I obtained from Halfway Creek Charlie, with chamber insert provided to him by Ottawa Creek Bill, handles this load and one using the Russian case with the same projectile very well. A 44 Special case with a heel base bullet is too long.

I will concede that if you wanted to step a bit farther away from traditional and match up to "lined" barrel or contemporary conversion, then a .429 barrel either manufactured in 44 Special or rechambered from 44-40 would negate the fun of loading heel base bullets
A Henry in 44-40 can be converted or an 1866 in 44 special can be found.

HH

[w44wcf]

HH,

It is still my feeling that to "emulate" a 44 Henry in a current production firearm we need to use the heeled .451 bullet and the 44 Colt case. 
HH

Yes indeed.  In comparing the .44 Henry to the .44 Colt (modern brass), the case capacities are pretty much the same. I have sectioned a .44 Colt case (modern brass) with the original bullet taken from an early .44 Colt cartridge and will post a pic of it alongside the sectioned .44 Henry cartridge within the next day or so.

A few questions if you don't mind....

Do you use 28 grs. of b.p. in your .44 Colt w/heeled bullet?
What bullet do you use? 
Have you chronographed your recipe?

Thank you,

w44wcf

[Hoof Hearted]

HH,


Yes indeed.  In comparing the .44 Henry to the .44 Colt (modern brass), the case capacities are pretty much the same. I have sectioned a .44 Colt case (modern brass) with the original bullet taken from an early .44 Colt cartridge and will post a pic of it alongside the sectioned .44 Henry cartridge within the next day or so.

A few questions if you don't mind....

Do you use 28 grs. of b.p. in your .44 Colt w/heeled bullet?
What bullet do you use? 
Have you chronographed your recipe?

Thank you,

w44wcf

I have a few different heeled moulds for the outside lubed 44. Sometimes (mostly in Colts) I use Rapine #451210. It is a ponted bullet and the ogive comes back almost all the way to the case mouth, with one outside lube groove. In the Remingtons I use Bernie's 248gr Remington (I have this in 2 cavity). It has 2 lube grooves and more bearing surface with a meplat of about 3/8's of an inch. For the 1860 Henry I use a modified version of that mould (I believe it was first made for Ottawa Creek Bill). It throws a "flat" nose bullet with a much larger meplat that weighs about 225 grains (depends on alloy).

I use 28 grains of 3f Swiss and it is "crisp" (also very VERY clean) but I have not bothered to set up the Chrony. Of course you can load 2f or use Russian brass (gun permitting) for less volume. I also like 4.something grains of Trail Boss I guess some people here would feel I am a BAD BOY for using smokeless, but I don't care My guns, my risk, and their problem