colt walker question

[mike6975]

can you use a "longer" type shell casing in the conversion cylinder in the walker,since a 45 lc shell is short in the cylinder of the walker and there is room left and dead space left in the chamber?.this would be a reload your own type of question,and is there a casing out there like a .444 or 45-100 i'm guessing here,i'm lookin to maximize the awesome power out of the beast.i also know that 60grains and rb are potent stuff,but i'm talkin about conversion cylinder though.any feedback is most appreciative/


Respectfully,

mike

[Fox Creek Kid]

No.

[mike6975]

thnak you sir for the quick response.and may you have a nice holliday and new year.



Respectfully,

mike

[Hoof Hearted]

can you use a "longer" type shell casing in the conversion cylinder in the walker,since a 45 lc shell is short in the cylinder of the walker and there is room left and dead space left in the chamber?.this would be a reload your own type of question,and is there a casing out there like a .444 or 45-100 i'm guessing here,i'm lookin to maximize the awesome power out of the beast.i also know that 60grains and rb are potent stuff,but i'm talkin about conversion cylinder though.any feedback is most appreciative/


Respectfully,

mike

Mike

Walt and I have been discussing this quite a bit. And it's doable (blackpowder of course).
It does require reaming the chambers as they are reamed for the length and dimentions of the 45 Colt.

My "easy" remedy is a shortened 444 case and a Heel base bullet (I favor Bernie's 248gr Remington OS lubed one). Magtech 410 cases will also work if shortened.
This can be made feasible by using a chucking reamer of the correct diameter to ream the chambers.

The next would be to use 45 caliber inside lubed bullets and either blown out 444 (or 410) cases (shortened to correct length) or some other 45 "colt" like longer case. Like 454 460 or 480 (maybe).
To do this you will have to buy a reamer for that caliber and I SUGGEST you short chamber the cylinder to avoid the accidental use of the smokeless round you choose (liabilty, present or future, should always be a concern).

Neither one of us is the first to come up with this but expect to be able to get 60 plus grains of fffg in there!

[will52100]

Not something I would do unless I was shooting something like DD's EPUG(think I might have spelled it rite) the round that replicates a round ball.  Even then max charge on the walker is pushing the design to the max.  I normaly shoot 50 grain charges with a 200 grain conicle, but a cartrige is a lot more efficent than cap lock and you might wind up with a handfull of worn out junk in short order.  Of course the cylinder made of modern gunsteel would be fine, but walkers arn't getting any cheaper.  I've been thinking of converting a dragoon, and the max load I think I'd use for it would be a 250 grain big lube and 38 grains of powder, I'd worry about damaging the gun, ie. stretching the arbor with any heavyier a load.

[Hoof Hearted]

Not something I would do unless I was shooting something like DD's EPUG(think I might have spelled it rite) the round that replicates a round ball.  Even then max charge on the walker is pushing the design to the max.  I normaly shoot 50 grain charges with a 200 grain conicle, but a cartrige is a lot more efficent than cap lock and you might wind up with a handfull of worn out junk in short order.  Of course the cylinder made of modern gunsteel would be fine, but walkers arn't getting any cheaper.  I've been thinking of converting a dragoon, and the max load I think I'd use for it would be a 250 grain big lube and 38 grains of powder, I'd worry about damaging the gun, ie. stretching the arbor with any heavyier a load.

The quoted load above is not much different than that of a 45 Colt and close to the 44-40.

It would be interesting to see if anyone who frequents this forum could tell us where and how the forces present would affect the cylinder arbor (scientifically).

My experience with Single Action pistol failure (I get guns in the shop from time to time) is when overloaded they blow the top of the cylinder. If this indeed removes the top strap, they always still remain in spec. Meaning I never see stretched frames or even relatively small cylinder pins still slide in and out fine. And this is with massive overcharges of smokeless powder.

Surely the modern metallurgy of the Italian Walkers (let alone the difference in their size compared to an 1860) would dictate they could handle more of a load than that? And yes the conversion cylinder is much stronger.

Tread lightly Anytime you delve into things that are different there is always this type of concern.

Mike

Were you intending to use this as a main match gun and shoot it hundereds or thousands of rounds?

[Fox Creek Kid]

I have a friend who was on a SASS posse in CA with a fella who blew up a Walker with Triple 7. The story was this fella is about 6'8", a mountain of a man, and he had a Walker. He hollered to a buddy how much to load and his friend said 60 gr. Well, the gorilla was using FFFg Triple 7 and proceeded to load 60 gr. and on the first shot there was a tremendous blast whereupon the gripframe was the only thing in his hand as they barrel sheared at the arbor slot and went downrange. As soon as it was discovered he was alright everyone burst out laughing. My friend (who is a gunsmith) said it looked like something out of a Yosemite Sam cartoon!! 

[ColonelFlashman]

This is the Reason why there are rather few original Walkers left because some mooks overloaded them.
The Itie made ones are just as prone to come apart under the same conditions, as you've just been informed.
I witnessed the above story & was extremely surprised that I didn't have to start picking schrapnell out of the bloke.
So this is the reason why the .45 Colt's cartridge is used & Not something longer that is able to Stuffed w/ More gunpowder.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Col., John Hooper told me this story. Feel free to make corrections.

[will52100]

The pair I shoot is so far holding up to 50 grain loads and 200 grain conicles.  The load of a 250 grainer I was refering to is my standard 45 colt load and the load I use in my Henry and what I'd use on a walker or dragoon conversion.  The thing is the walker is not made with the best steel, I don't know what alloy it is but from the way it machines it's very close to mild steel.  Far better than the original, but then aprox. 1/3 of the orginals blew up.

If Uberti would build the frame and arbor out of say 4140 or 4150 alloy with proper heat treat I don't think you'd have to worry about frame or arbor stretch.  Even a real color case harding of the frame and arbor would help.  Uberti's open tops and conversions are built to a differant standard than there cap and ball guns, more's the pitty.

I have noticed some stretch with my walkers, hopefully they'll last many thousands of rounds more, but then I bought them knowing I may have to replace the arbors in the future.  In fact while getting them ready for local matches I had one that was backing the arbor locking pin out under recoil and the arbor was getting wiggly.  Not a hard fix but full power loads are very hard on the gun.  After that I backed down to 50 grains and the guns are showing less wear and tear.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

WHY?  Because we can?

Our sport has a pretence for historical accuracy.  Conversions are part of that historical process. We make a few compromises like "modern" .44 Colt, and .38 Special, because original ammo is hard to find. Yes and even .45 Colt in conversions.  But even with .45Colt there are examples, 'though rare, of original conversions in that calibre.

To go further might be fun, but as I watch this thread, I wonder.

[Hoof Hearted]

I have a friend who was on a SASS posse in CA with a fella who blew up a Walker with Triple 7. The story was this fella is about 6'8", a mountain of a man, and he had a Walker. He hollered to a buddy how much to load and his friend said 60 gr. Well, the gorilla was using FFFg Triple 7 and proceeded to load 60 gr. and on the first shot there was a tremendous blast whereupon the gripframe was the only thing in his hand as they barrel sheared at the arbor slot and went downrange. As soon as it was discovered he was alright everyone burst out laughing. My friend (who is a gunsmith) said it looked like something out of a Yosemite Sam cartoon!! 

Triple Seven does strange (and dangerous things) when even slightly compressed.
I can see this happening with the use of a rammer on any pistol.

Remember also I said REAL BLACK POWDER.
Alos remember this cylinder we are (Will52100 and I) talking about is NOT mild steel. Walt Kirst is using better materials than the afore-mentioned BP cylinder and they are heat treated.

[Flint]

Heavy loads (60 gr) will loosen up a Walker, and people on the forum have reported crushing wedges.  A heavy cartridge load is more likely to pull the arbor.

The arbor threads batter the female threads in the frame and loosen the arbor.  The more it is shot, the looser it will get.

The original Walker blow-ups were caused by the low grade steel Colt was able to get.  For that reason, the Dragoon was made shorter to allow less powder.  When the 1860 Army was developed Colt bought higher grade steel from Sheffield in England to take the pressures in the smaller, thinner cylinder.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Flint, there was a great article in the last year or so in "Man at Arms" magazine on the development of the '60 Army whereas Colt had a helluva time initially with the cylinders bursting. As you said they went to a new steel but also they had to bore tapered chambers as well to compensate.

[Paladin UK]

    Wow!! nother History lesson!! 


Aint it great here!!

Paladin (What lurvs his opentops ) UK

[mike6975]

hoof hearted and everyone thanks for all the info and help all of your expertise is taken to heart and is respected immensly,i actually wanted to use this as a heavy load for hunting or defense to be shot sparringly or taken with me to the woods.also how good would this be as a manstopper(thinkin out loud)

MERRY CHRISTMAS everyone!

Respectfully,

mike

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

You are going to carry FOUR POUNDS of horse pistol for concealed carry?

[mike6975]

NO SIR!,you got me wrong i said in the woods or deer huntin not  ccw  that would be cumbersome and extremly noticeably,i have pondered the thought of a snubnose 58 remmi with conversion cylinder though for open carry(legal in va.) so would the walker idea fly that why in the woods as a sidearm still?

Respectfully,

mike

[Fox Creek Kid]

The Walker is a horse style pistol made for pommel holster carried on a saddle. Sure, there were a few people that had scabbards (holsters) made for belt carry, but I bet they didn't walk far and that it was mostly for show & deterrence in ol' California & the Mexican border area. The nomenclature that came later implied that a .44 was an "Army" sized pistol and a "Belt" size was a .36 as general rule of thumb.

[Capt. Willard]

This subject always crops up and so does the misinformation (like AR 15 ammo being designed to wound rather than kill etc...)
For the record if its a quality repro (not soft like some San Marco's, Palmettos etc) you can stuff it full of Real Black Powder with no troubles.
Original Walkers blew because of inferior metalurgy of the times and the use of conical Picket bullets placed in the cylinders backwards creating a "shaped charge" that directed the force of the explosion outwards against the cylinder walls not straight out the front if loaded properly.
If its a Uberti or a colt second gen you should be safe filling her up to the brim if you like. All other makes I wouldn't do it..not for the fear of a blow up so much but fear of a wedge being stretched or bolt stop breakage.
Triple seven has more in common with modern powders and is very hot with a rapid pressure spike unlike true black powder. Repros should never be used with full chambers of that stuff ...it will send pieces of your repro (and possibly you) into orbit.