Cimmaron Richards Type II .44 spl Question

[Thai Fighter]

Hey guys, quick question regarding the Type II in .44 spl.  I know there's some snobbery going about "the correct" caliber with regards to chambering.  I can wait "FOREVER" for .44 colt or .45 LC to become available.  If ever.  Right now I can get a pair of .44 spl.  What's the current standing on using that round in CAS or NCOWS competition?  I may have heard incorrectly that at some shoots you get looked down upon if you're shooting something other than "the correct" caliber.  True?

The way I look at it, ."modern" 44 Colt is .429 to .430 just like the .44 spl anyway.  The only difference is overall and case length.  I know.  I know.  But is this justification over all the snobbery?!?

Comments?

Thanks Pards.

[Flint]

I have Opentops in 44 Special and 44 Colt.  I shoot them both as 44 Russians.  Hard to get more authentic to the old west than a 44 Russian....

[Thai Fighter]

Seth & Flint,

All great info!  I was thinking the same thing, but not being a revolver aficionado, I wasn't sure of the headspacing issues inside the cylinder.  Sounds like I can pretty much shoot anything sans .44 mag.

As far as the authentic .44 colt issue goes, I completely agree.  Unless you're using a .451 heel-type bullet with a .430 heel ...you ain't really shooting .44 Colt

Just my 2-cents

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I've never heard of an objection to any .44 or ,45 fired in a revolver of a type made during the period.  Bisley Vaqueros have been ruled OUT.  I'd say buy those pistols, or whistle Dixey!

[Mako]

Thai Fighter,
Where did you find a pair of .44 Spl Type IIs?  Ive been trying to get a pair since they came out.  Even Cimarron was checking for me.  If you decide not to get them let me know because I definitely want them.  People keep telling me they know where a pair of type IIs are and every time I check they are either Richards-Masons or Open Tops.

PM me if you don't want this pair or know where another pair is.  Cimarron doesn't even know what they have coming in late January delivery, they have me on a list for anything in a .44 Type II but I'm tired of waiting.

Thanks,
Mako

[Thai Fighter]

Mako,

I just emailed the gunsmith I'm working with to go ahead and place the order tonight.  He had called Cimmaron last week (Monday or thereabouts) and was told they had "plenty of .44 spls" but nothing else in sight.  That email was Tuesday the 9th, and I'm just emailing him back tonight, six-days later.  I may be out of luck myself having waited too long.

I'll let the list know if I got lucky or screwed myself by hemming and hawing over these.  The 'Smith is Nate Kiowa Jones, aka Steve Young, and you can contact him direct here:

http://www.stevesgunz.com/

I'm starting to really get the feeling that I'd be lucky to get these now!

Good luck!

[Mako]

Thai Fighter,
Steve does my sight work for me, I know who he is.  I spoke to Cimarron again a few weeks ago and their next shipment isn't until January or February.  They may have Richards-Masons or Open Tops, but they don't have Type IIs.  Abilene who is on this forum works there, you can PM him.

I wish you were right, I can always be wrong, but I'm afraid I'm not,  I'll call Steve tonight and Cimarron tomorrow.

Have a good one and the best to you in your quest for the pistols.

Regards,
Mako

[Thai Fighter]

Mako,

FTR Steve may not be calling Cimmaron.  Could just be a distributor?  We'll find out soon enough.

[Mako]

Thai Fighter,
I called Steve this evening and he said he had spoken to someone other than Marcey (who he says is no longer in sales) that said they had some that were "stocked" by some of the salesmen for their dealers.  He's going to call tomorrow morning and verify they actually have them.  Don't worry, I told him you have first "dibs" on any available.

I see Seth responded  and had the same problem I did.  He's lucky though he bought a pair of Type 1s which few of us have.  I have an Armi San Marco Type 1, it is a '61 conversion .in .38 spl. and a couple of pairs of Open Tops.

I hope you and Steve are right about the Type IIs being squirreled away. If he can get more after he has filled your order he's going to bob  a pair to 5 Inches even for me and put some new front sights on them.

Best of luck,
Mako

[Fox Creek Kid]

Mako, I see on Steve's website where he dovetails in a front sight on round barrel guns. Questions: has he done one for you like this on a round barrel and do you know the dovetail size? Thanks, beforehand.

[Abilene]

I was at Cimarron yesterday, putting guns on the shelf from a shipment that came in last week.  I did not notice any Type II's in .44 but I wasn't looking for them, either.  I did see six in .45LC with 8" barrels.  I rather suspect that those may already have backorders since they have been out of .45 for a while.  There are still quite a few .38's on the shelf (those do not have the rebated cylinder).  As far as Cimarron having "plenty of .44 Spcls" as the email to Nate indicated, I think someone was confused.

Mako, Marcey has been out of sales for quite a while.  She takes care of all the paperwork of getting guns into and out of the building, labels, etc.  Most of the sales crew are very familiar with the various models, although there is one person who is fairly new and could possibly get confused over Type II vs. Richards-Mason vs. OT.

[Fox Creek Kid]

...There are still quite a few .38's on the shelf (those do not have the rebated cylinder)...

They're making a Type II Richards in .38 with a STRAIGHT cylinder? 

[Mako]

Mako, I see on Steve's website where he dovetails in a front sight on round barrel guns. Questions: has he done one for you like this on a round barrel and do you know the dovetail size? Thanks, beforehand.

I measured one and it measured 3/8", I also asked him today when he called.  They are 3/8" dovetails, he can do smaller ones but those are his standard blank sizes and he said he had lots of cutters for that size.  He can give you the width you want as well as the front sweep and lots of height to give you room to get your elevation right.

I'm trying to figure out just what width I want now on my pair which he's going to cut to 5".  It wouldn't be as hard if I wasn't dealing with a rear sight in the hammer.  I want these to give me a good flash sight picture .  I used to run .09" on my limited pistols with 5 " barrels and .105" on my compensated open class pistols pistols (that sort of dates me since we weren't using scopes or electronic sights yet, the first non-iron sight we used were Burris 1X scopes with just dots) . Chip started using .09" when he was shooting small plates at the Steel Challenge and got me hooked on it.  This was before everyone switched to electronic sights at that match.

Give him a call, he's a great guy (but I'll warn you he's a bit busy right now).

[Mako]

Thai Fighter,
I owe you man!!!!!!!!!  I guess we both have a pair coming, mine should be in tomorrow if they made the shipment today.

If it had been anyone other than Steve I would have figured they didn't know what he was talking about.  He seems to know where they hide inventory...

Regards,
Mako

[Mako]

Abilene,
I have been speaking to different people at Cimarron ever since the pistols came out.  You remember I was looking for them a couple of years ago.  It's not just some new people, NO ONE knew they had any.  I'll tell you more in private.

Later buddy,
Mako

[Thai Fighter]

Mako,

I was just logging in to tell you guys that Steve says I have a pair on the way, and to see if you were able to secure a set too.  But you beat me to it!  I'll post some pics after Steve get's done turning them around.  I'm asking him to do his trigger work, slug the barrels and measure the chambers mouths for me.  Depending on the latter results, that just might be the extent of his work and they could be on their way to me early next year.

[Mako]

A .38 caliber, non-rebated cylinder Type II ?!?!  Say it ain't so.  Oh please, say it ain't so!

Seth,
I'm not understanding your comment.  Are you lamenting they are making one, or that you don't have one?  '61s were as common as '60s.  If you look at any antique auction you will see as many of them as you will the Army models.  Those are all non-rebated cylinders.  They made both .38 Rim Fire and .38 Cenrtral Fire cartridge versions.

~Mako

[Fox Creek Kid]

If Uberti would make a correct RM '61 Navy in .38 I'd be on one like a fat kid on a Snickers!!

Mako, IMO the 3/8" dovetail on the front sight of a CAS revolver looks ungainly, i.e., too big. That's just MY opinion. However, I know why he uses it: it's just too damn easy to break smaller dovetail cutters. I have a machinist buddy who'll do small ones for me but he told me that I have to buy the cutter(s) as when they're that small they break like a glass rod. Any originals I have seen that had a dovetailed front sight used a small dovetail as well. Thanks again for the info.

[Mako]

Mako - are you saying you found some Type II's in .44 cal?

Yep, it appears so, I'll know by tomorrow or Friday for sure.  They are being shipped to me.  Thai  Fighter is getting a pair too, so there were at least 2 pairs.  I'll let you know when I get them.
~Mako

[Mako]

I'm lamenting the fact that they are making a 1860 Army Richards Type II conversion in .38 caliber with a non-rebated cylinder.  It's just wrong.  Another perfect replica of a gun that never existed.

Don't get me wrong.  I'm glad Uberti is making conversions.  But there are enough conversions available in .38 cal that they don't need to be making the '60 Type II in a caliber that it was never originally chambered for.  Using a non-rebated cylinder is just adding insult to injury.

Seth,
If they are making a non-rebated cylinder in .38 without the frame cut then it is an 1861 conversion, not an 1860.  The only difference was the standard barrel length, the '61 was 7 1/2" instead of 8"; the cylinder was the non-rebated diameter the entire length and the frame didn't have the corresponding clearance cut for the larger forward diameter.  You keep calling it an 1860 Army Richards Type II in .38 with a non-rebated cylinder, Cimarron doesn't call their pistols that, they call them "Richards Transition Models."  I guess that name is sort of "correct" as far as a description goes for either an 1860 or an 1861 conversion, they aren't R&Ms.

Your lament about incorrect caliber applies to every factory made conversion pistol you can buy today. You are one of the few that has anything that might be considered the "correct" historical caliber when you obtained your Type 1 conversions.  I have a pair of Open Tops in .44, and a pair in .38 spl. but those are not the correct caliber, no one has a modern Open Top in the correct caliber, there hasn't been rimfire ammunition available since it quit coming out of Mexico and South America.  All of the Richards-Masons, Richards Type IIs and Open Tops are "incorrect calibers."    This actually includes the Navy models as well because they are modern calibers as well.  Now if you are saying that a .38 special in an Army Model Richards Type II "just aint right," then I understand.  But I have a daughter who is going to shoot a pair of Open Tops in .38 Spl.  She might disagree with you.

Now I have to talk to Abilene, because I haven't seen a Transition Model in .38 with non-rebated cylinders.  I looked at a .38 and I'm pretty sure it had the standard Army profile cylinder. I'm with Fox Creek Kid, if they have them I'll be on them like a chicken on a June Bug.  I love the 1861 and would shoot them more if I had a better bullet, the balls are just too small.   One in .38 special would allow me to shoot 160 grain Snake Bite Grease Wagons.

~Mako