C and B Revolver Loading Preferances

[Leo Tanner]

I'd like ta hear some various opinions on this subject.  I could ask several questions but will start with a simple one.

     Do you think grease at the end of the chamber is enough to prevent chain fires and have good performance, or do you believe wads are essential?  If you like wads, which do you prefer?  I've also heard of some using a thin layer of innert filler between the charge and the bullet, but it seems this would cheat you on BANG and smoke.

     I'd love ta hear anything any C&B shooter has ta say about this.


Leo

[Pettifogger]

The primary purpose of grease is to keep BP fouling soft.  Properly fitting balls and caps are the keys to preventing chainfires.  The last few years, during most matches I use APP because it eliminates the necessity for grease and speeds up the loading process.  Been shooting C&B since 1962 and have never had a chainfire with real BP or the subs.  Chainfires happen, but its almost always because of sloppy loading technique.

[litl rooster]

ditto

[Rusty Spurless]

+2

I have only had 1 chain fire & that was 30+ yrs ago. Right when I 1st got into C&B shooting.
It was an 1860 & the only caps I could find were very loose. I believe that one of them fell of in shooting resulting in the chain fire.

[Noz]

I am one of the unfortunate in that I have had 4 chain fires. All originated at the face of the cylinder because in every case the cap on the chain fired chamber was intact and fired when the gun was cleared. After much research on what was going on I determined, and was apparently right because I have had no more, that the culprit was using too hard of an alloy to cast the balls. With a hard alloy the ball does not swage properly and any casting void or presence of a sprue can leave an open channel for the fire from a previous shot to enter. I had added some linotype to my alloy to allow for a better mold fill out. Don't do it any more.
I use a homemade felt wad impregnated with a mixture of wax and mutton tallow over the powder. I gives some lube to the the barrel but I think more important allows me to insure I have good compression in each chamber. I use only Holy Black in my percussion pistols, 30 grs FFFg by volume.
Are the wads necessary? I don't know but adds very little to the cost and I feel better.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Do you think grease at the end of the chamber is enough to prevent chain fires and have good performance, or do you believe wads are essential?

Howdy

No to grease alone preventing chain fires. I can tell you from experience. I bought my first C&B revolver in 1968. In those days wonder wads and such had not been invented yet. The conventional wisdom in those days was to slather Crisco over the ends of the chambers to prevent chainfires. This is next to useless. What happens when you try this is the flame and hot gasses escaping from the barrel/cylinder gap melt the Crisco in the chamber that is next to the gap; the next chamber to be fired. Most of the melted Crisco runs out of the chamber, leaving only a thin oily coating on the ball and the chamber mouth. Not much to lube the bore. Everybody always talks about how chainfires happen from loose fitting caps, but if you happen to have a less than perfect ball, one that has a deep dent or a nick in the surface, and the dent or nick is not completely shaved away when the ball is seated, then you have a void between the chamber wall and the ball. This leaves a perfect path for an errant spark to find its way past the ball and into the powder charge. And a thin oily layer of melted Crisco is not going to be enough to stop that spark. On the other hand, if you have the same situation with a felt wad between the ball and the powder, 1/8" or so of felt makes a much better spark arrestor than a thin oily layer of melted grease.

Anyway, whether it was a loose fitting cap, or a poor ball to chamber seal, I had a humdinger of a chainfire with my ole C&B when I was a kid. So the Crisco over the balls was clearly not enough to stop a chainfire. Years later when I found out about Wonder Wads I decided to never again put grease over the ball of a C&B. Wads between the powder and ball everytime for this old cowboy.

[Mako]

+ 3 to Pettifogger's comments.

But, I will tell you I use homemade wads similar to what Noz described.  Their sole purpose is to keep the fouling soft.  Grease over the balls is a measy proposition during a Texas summer, I sort of like my holsters the color they are now. Cleanliness during reloading and tight fitting balls take care of the front of the cylinder.

~Mako

[Leo Tanner]

Thanks for the answers.  You all seem to have a lot of experience with these guns and I am just now gaining a serious interest.  It's good to hear solid agreement from several shooters rather than reading 10 completely opposing opinions.  It realy does help
     
     So another question, do you fully load each chamber one at a time (excluding the cap of course) or go through all of them powder first then lead?  I've seen it done both ways and heard saftey argumments for both.


Leo

[Fox Creek Kid]

I sometimes use a thin card wad, that I have soaked beforehand (in your lube of choice), between the ball & powder. It works superbly. I use the Circle Fly 0.025" Overshot Card in 0.450 diameter in a .44 cap 'n ball. Just make sure that you use a stiff lube when the weather is warm so as not to contaminate the BP.

[Bristow Kid]

I am fairly new to shooting C&B revolvers.  Just started this summer.  I have yet(knock on wood) had a chain fire.  After doing some extensive reading on the subject.  I  have tried the lube over the balls and all I have found is that it makes a major mess in the summer.  I attribute my not having a chain fire(again knocking on wood) to tight fitting balls.  The wad between the powder and ball is something I am going to look into using.  Sounds like sound practice and good insurance.

Bristow Kid

[Mako]

So another question, do you fully load each chamber one at a time (excluding the cap of course) or go through all of them powder first then lead?  I've seen it done both ways and heard saftey argumments for both.

In my experience It depends on whether you load using the rammer on the pistol or using a cylinder loader.  It also makes a difference whether or not you use a wad, card or something else between the powder and ball.

3 Options

Number 1 (On the Pistol)
If you load on the pistol and don't use a wad or card it would be safer and make more sense to place and seat a ball after each charge is thrown. Otherwise you may lose powder from other chambers as you manipulate the pistol.  If I load on the pistol I place a wad over each powder charge and seat it with a dowel before moving to the next chamber.  Before seating the balls I reinspect the five loaded chambers and then seat  the balls. 

I am a bit anal about my loading procedure which is probably why my pistols work and I have never had a chain fire (knock on wood...) If I loaded on the pistol I actually remove the cylinder at this  time and clean the cut lead ring and any powder or residue that might remain. Then I reassemble and move to the second pistol.

Number 2 (Charge dismounted cylinder and use rammer on Pistol)
Remove the cylinder from the pistol. After cleaning load all 5 chambers with powder then add a wad to each.  Remount cylinder, seat balls then remove cylinder again to clean lead ring, grease center pin and reinstall.

Number 3 (Load cylinder on a separate cylinder loader)
Remove the cylinder from the pistol. After cleaning load all 5 chambers with powder then add a wad to each.  Using the cylinder loader seat five balls.  Clean lead rings, reinspect, grease center pin and reassemble pistol.

#3 is my preferred method, it is faster than #2 and provides the maximum safety in loading if you have people interrupting you while loading.  You can inspect and verify the condition of each chamber at each stage.  You could literally walk away from the operation and return 10 minutes later and quickly determine where you are in the process.   You may think my procedure is a bit much, but it is actually rather fast and my pistols are cleaned every stage.  If you ask those I shoot with you will find I have trouble free stages, I credit the cleanliness and inspection for this record.  While charging my pistols I man the loading table and serve as the Safety Officer for the table.  I can stop at any point to carry out my duties at this station while serving in this important function of the posse.

One more tip.  I start out as a target spotter, and perform this function until almost half of the posse has shot.  Then I load up and cap up, shoot my stage and then finish at the unloading table.  I rarely just stand around and watch.  If you perform those functions on your posse and charge up as described you will never have anyone waiting on you and you will always be considered a valuable member of a posse.

Have fun, C&B is the best way to do it.
~Mako

[Leo Tanner]

Thanks again.  This is why I come here rather than just surf the web for articles.

     I'm really looking forward to doing a lot of C&B shooting, and every bit of extra confidence helps.


Leo

[Dalton Masterson]

I use homemade wads at a match most of the time, but also have a tube of bore butter in my box. I like the wads, as I can get a little more compression, and I use the bore butter when I am running short on the wads.
The only chainfire I had was with my Starr, and I believe it was due to the ball sprue getting to the side of the chamber, as opposed to straight up or down. This left a gap, and allowed the spark to light it off. The cap was fired, but was stuck tight to the nipple. I had to pry it off. In my case, I was in a hurry, and didnt use any lube or wad, and just rammed a ball willy nilly.
It pays to do all the steps.

As for loading, I charge on the pistol, as they were designed, charging it with powder, then a wad. I do all 5 this way, then add the ball. If I am just using borebutter, I charge with powder, then add the ball. Charging all 5 at once, I tend to shake half the powder out, and also lose count of where I am in the loading process.
DM

[will52100]

I've had one chain fire, and that definatly was from the cap.  I'd converted a 51 to 38 colt, cut down the cylinder and drilled and mounted a breach plate to the frame.  Well, I decided to go back to cap and ball and bought a new cylinder and removed the solid breach plate, negleting to fill the hole at the 6 O'clock position.  First time out flame followed the hammer around and set the chamber off rite under the loading leaver.  Filled the hole and never had a nouther problem.

The bigest thing for my thinking is to chamfer the cylinder mouths, use oversize lead balls, or as I'm doing now conicle bullets, and good fitting caps on Tresso nipples.  The chamfering the chamber mouths probably does the most good along with an over sized soft lead ball.  .375 is too blasted small for even a Pietta, much less a uberti.  I would prefere to shoot .385 in my Uberti's, though my Pietta 36's love the .380's.  A minimum for 44's is .454, if the chamber mouth is somewhat oversized or the ball doesn't shave or upset a large ring then you realy need to go to a larger ball.

Funny thing is that I've almost completely switched to conicle bullets cast from a lee mould, surprisingly I get better offhand accuracy from them than I did from round balls.  There pan lubed so that helps too.

I have used wads before, and every once in a while will run some through as a way to knock some of the fouling out of the bore during long strings.  I generaly shoot 2-300 rounds before cleaning.  I know it'd be better to take the barrel off and run a wet patch or two through but I've got the wads, just shooting them up.  I normaly put a swipe of crisco over the balls, not the lubed conicles, not a lot, just something to help lube the ball and keep the fouling soft.

Your milage may very.

[hellgate]

I do a little bit of what just about everybody has mentioned except take the cylinders out for charging. That would get my hands all too messy and take extra time. Everything is done on the gun at the unloading table where I clear shooters coming off the firing line. I powder 5 chambers from a flask (20, 23, or 30grs FFFg), wad 5, seat 5 .454 home cast balls, and grease 5 chambers while holding the gun upright. I use a 50/50 beeswax/olive oil soaked 1/8"-3/16" thick wool felt wad I cut out from automotive felt scraps using a 7/16" hole punch in a drill press. I also put a bead of cheap rotgut automotive grease around each ball with a curved tip irrigation syringe. In real cold weather I use GOOP soapless hand cleaner over the balls but mostly auto grease 'cause it stays the same consistency whether it is freezing or blistering hot out. Beeswax based lubes get too firm in cold weather and melt in hot weather. The auto grease is not "organic" but works for me. The reason I do overkill on lube wads and over ball grease is to keep the fouling soft so the guns run smooth for the whole match. The spatter onto the cylinder face and pin keeps things turning. Depending on the Remington I may even put a single drop of oil from a small squeeze bottle onto the front of the cylinder where it contacts the frame and jiggle it down onto the cylinder pin to keep it freewheeling. I use a wooden push stick to do the final seating of caps.

Like Driftwood Johnson I started out in 1968 (or 9) but thankfully have never had a chainfire. I am anal about my loading as are most experienced C&B shooters otherwise you get missfires, chainfires, and dryballs (no powder in the chamber, not a venereal disease!). After a while you work up a rhythm and could load in pitch black as I have had to do during night shoots. To mark my open chamber I use 3 drops of white fingernail polish: a big drop 1/4" from the chamber and one small drop on either side of the nipple cutout to better show the loading table RO which nipple goes uncapped and under the hammer. Marking the open chamber avoids misloadings and aids the fellow checking for "hammer down on an empty chamber". That's how I do it. As you can see, opinions vary so try different ways and see what works for you.

[Fingers McGee]

+ 3 to Pettifogger's comments.

But, I will tell you I use homemade wads similar to what Noz described.  Their sole purpose is to keep the fouling soft.  Grease over the balls is a measy proposition during a Texas summer, I sort of like my holsters the color they are now. Cleanliness during reloading and tight fitting balls take care of the front of the cylinder.

~Mako

+4 to Pettifogger's comments.  & +1 to Noz's and Mako's.  I also use lubed wads to keep the fouling soft.  Grease over the the balls is a messy proposition whether in a hot Texas summer or a middlin midwest spring.  I load while the pistol is still assembled, on a stand built to the side of my gun cart.  I believe in the KISS principle.  Don't need a lot of extraneous stuff to carry and keep track of.

FM

[Noz]

Loading sequence: I have a cheap Cabela's stand to hold the revolver upright while loading. I do not have an"open chamber" marked so that I don't load it. I put the hammer on half cock and the first chamber available is where I start loading. I pour powder directly from the measuring spout of my flask into a chamber and add a wad. This gives me a marked starting point and prevents water or wind bothering the powder. When I have 5 chambers loaded with powder and wad I load each with a 454 ball. Loading the balls all at the same time gives me an opportunity to be as consistant as possible in my loading pressure.
As they say: Your mileage may vary.

[Mogorilla]

I have only one chain fire, 2 chambers at once, it was a cap related issue.   I load using the rammer, holding the pistol upright.   I load powder and wad all the way around, then run the rammer down to seat the wad on the powder.  Then I place a ball and seat each individually.   (only 5 usually unless I am shooting right away)   I cap at the line with various cappers, snail, straight, and a leather circle cut to hold 7 or 8 caps.   Each pistol has its preference to the capper it likes.    I ususally use bore butter on the cylinder pin.   I have shot my Pietta Colt army with 250 consecutive shots and had no fouling problem or cylinder drag.   

[Dick Dastardly]

The charm of Big Lube™ C&B designed bullets is that they are lube/sized for a nice snug interference fit with the chambers and have a short rebate on the base to assure square insertion.  Properly lube/sized, the EPP-UG and DD/ROA designs effectively eliminate any chance of chain fire from the cylinder face.  There is absolutely no need for any lube cookies, wads or over bullet smears.  The lube is all captured in the huge lube grove.

These are bullets that work very well in BOTH C&B and cartridge conversion cylinders.  One bullet, many missions.  Terrific accuracy, no foul out and easy gun cleaning.  Life is good.

DD-DLoS

[Noz]

DD are you still recommending that the ug  be loaded upside down for the armys?