Evil Roy Got It Wrong!!

[Fairshake]

First, Let me say that I have nothing but the upmost respect for the man. He has done alot to help the sport of CAS and continues to do so. I'm not here to bash or degrade but to put down some constructive criticism. I'm a former POST Firearms instructor and armorer with the Baton Rouge, La. S.O. I've been to several Smith& Wesson, Sig, Ruger, Ithica, Remington and other firearms schools. I'm not bragging by no means but want to let you know that I'm well schooled in firearms. On Wednesday night on 12/3/08 he was giving a demonstration on the proper way to draw and cock the weapon to engage the target. He and Tequila were co-hosting. Not once but several times, he referred to his revolvers as pistols. He would say, as you draw your pistol you want to cock the pistol when it's here and not out in front. The reference to pistols was used many many times. He uses as I'm sure he knows revolvers and not pistols. They are two completely different weapons. As a person in his position should know that when you are teaching persons that don't know a thing and you give them mis-information you do them a disservice. Those people will say " I know that's the truth because Evil Roy taught that on his show". The correct nomenclature should be used so that when someone says to move your grip higher on the backstrap that person knows what to do. Several people say "do you have any more clips for that rifle" TV stars say it all the time. They should be saying magazine. Roy has a chance with his position to bring non shooting persons into our sport. They should be taught the correct names along with style. I'm now stepping down off the soap box.

[Camille Eonich]

re·volv·er    (rĭ-vŏl'vər)  Pronunciation Key 
n.   
A pistol having a revolving cylinder with several cartridge chambers that may be fired in succession.

[Adirondack Jack]

I grew up believing there were "handguns", and the group consisted of "pistols" and "revolvers".  I would have thought the word pistol denoted an old time dueling pistol or a semi-automati such as a 1911, but not a revolver.  AAMOF there was a time, about 50 years ago, when a NYS CCW permit read "Pistol and Revolver License".  NYS laws refer to "pistol or revolver", except the most recent ones, which simply refer to "handgun".

But times and language change.  My 10 yr old NYS CCW simply says  "License to carry PISTOL is hereby granted".  Of course that means 1911 or SAA either one.   I guess even the slow, stubborn ole NYS finally relented and dropped the "or revolver" , since the LANGUAGE has evolved so that "pistol" means "Handgun", of which "revolver" is one relatively obsolete type 

[Howdy Doody]

Dang pard, that is pretty picky. If that holds back converting one non gun person to our side, then I will take Roy, actually Gene, to task on that for sure.
I have a lot of respect for Evil Roy. He is more than just a cowboy action shooter. An example was recently, there was a service and afterwards a big get together for China Camp. Evil Roy had flown to LA just to honor a friend of his China Camp. That was cowboy, right there. He is bigger in life than he is on camera.
I remember boot camp and the this is my rifle, this is my gun stuff, which was old then and older now. Guns, pistols, revolvers, weapons. It all works for me pretty well.
I'd imagine a lot of kids think that to sight a handgun, pistol or revolver, you have to tilt it sideways to aim it. I should invent sights that mount to the side of a slide and make millions from it.
I don't know, it is probably just me, but the more we just get shooting out there as a fun thing to do and that there are millions of us that enjoy shooting at targets, hunting and such, the better.

[shieldsmt]

Sorry, someone beat you to it!

[Fairshake]

Howdy, I knew when I posted this that people were going to jump on me so have at it. As I stated I have the upmost respect for Roy. If you are saying that all guns are the same then if you have a bolt action shotgun or rifle it don't matter they are all the same. I did not post this to attack. Reread my post. Do you wear a shirt or blouse or are they all the same in that they are made out of material to cover the upper body. As far as shooting and having fun I shoot full cases of BP. Do you think I'm out  to take Roy's place? I just think that the proper name should be given. If you just say handgun, then that would be correct. 

[Camille Eonich]

I haven't seen anybody jump on you.  Seems as though everyone has been very polite.   

[Jefro]

On Wednesday night on 12/3/08 he was giving a demonstration on the proper way to draw and cock the weapon to engage the target.  They are two completely different weapons.

Get a grip!!! And as a firearms instructor you should know that we don't call them weapons. We call them firearms, a weapon is something used in an act of violence or war. A firearm is not a weapon untill it is used in such a manner. We use firearms for a recreational family sport/game. Calling them weapons is also considered bad PR. At least that's what every firearms instructor taught me, and it must be true, they had a certificate and everything.

Jefro :)Relax-Enjoy

[Major 2]

I don't know ER or you...

now to the point ....Semantics

Today... It's correct to say PISTOLS for the auto action designs of Browning, Luger, Mauser, Etal..
And refer to Revolvers as such ...

In the day , The Walker designed by Sam Colt and Texas Ranger Captain Samuel Walker, Samuel Colt's Whitneyville factory.
 In Colt's own words " its entire run of only 240 pistols sold out immediately."
Colt named the product of this collaboration the "Walker Model." It would be America's first "six-shooter," a terrifically powerful .44-caliber pistol ideally suited for frontier combat."
I quote Samual Colt....


If Ol' Sam called them "PISTOLS" in 1847 ....and ER wants to call them "Pistols" today... I have no issue with it !
it was fine in the mid 1800's and it still fine by me .....


It's like a Cressent Wrench....not all adjustable wrenches are made by the Cressent Tool Co.
but if I ask you for a Cressent wrench you'd know what I want !
or Levi 's.. not all jeans are  Levi Strauss & Company...or Wranglers by Wrangler ...

You say TOMOTO... I'll say tomato  

oh! and while we are at it ..here is a period label

[Howdy Doody]

Fairshake, pard I wasn't flaming you. I more or less in my simple way wanted others and you to know that Evil Roy is really a standup person and I don't know him very well at all, other than shake his hand a couple times.

I am sorry if you think I jumped on you personally, I would never do that. It was all had to speak the truth about Big Ed last week.

I am just sorry someone invented side sights and there goes my retirement. I figured to retire on that idea and now it is back to the drawing board.

[Delmonico]

Not a flame, but have you ever read the writings of someone who was an old trail hand back in the 19th century, the word "Pistol" is the most common word the old timers use for a revolver.  Since we play 19th century then perhaps pistol is a better word.

[Texas Lawdog]

Clint called em pistols in "Outlaw Josey Wales".

[River City John]

It's 'pistol-whipped', not 'revolver-whipped'.

[Fairshake]

Howdy, I meant jumped on in a funning way and not like a serious thing. Camile also mistook what I said, maybe y'all didn't have your mind reading sections turned on. As far as the word weapon, every school that I've been to in my 61 years used that term. Gentleman, holster,bench or groung your weapon. That is the term I was taught and will not change to be politically correct. The points about Clint is just what I was talking about. A person on a national stage reaches alot of people and what he says goes on record as being correct. Why not have the word changed in Webster's so that it covers all guns that one can hold in his hand. That would include a TOW and a few of Mr. Brownings weapons design. Them targets would be in trouble with them pistols.

[Camille Eonich]

Can I ask why, if this terminology bothers you so much that you felt compelled to write almost a paragraph about it and post it on a public forum, that you didn't compose an e-mail or an actual letter and send it directly to Evil Roy?  I'm sure that he would be more than happy to address your concerns.

[Trailrider]

Howdy, Pards,
IIRC, The Outlaw Josey Wales said to the soldiers, "Well, are you gonna pull those pistols or whistle Dixie?"

Seriously, until the advent of the semi-automatic handgun, the term "pistol" was used to refer to single shot or "revolving pistols"...just "pistols" for short!  So, Roy was being "historically correct".  Frankly, it took me quite a while NOT to refer to revolvers as...revolvers!

When Kermit the Frog went to sparkin' Miss Piggy, they made up a song about him:

"Froggy went a courtin', he did ride,
His sword an' pistol by his side...
Umm hmm! Umm hmm!"  

Ride easy, Pards, it stands to be a long winter (and maybe 4 to 8 years!   )

[ChuckBurrows]

Why not have the word changed in Webster's so that it covers all guns that one can hold in his hand.

That would depend on which edition of Webster's you are referring to -

The 1996 hardbound and current online editions of Webster's do define a pistol as "a handgun whose chamber is integral with the barrel " - which FWIW could describe either a flintlock dueler or a M1911

On the other hand my 1909 Unabridged Websters and my 1960 College Edition both define a pistol as
"A small firearm made to be held and fired with one hand; most pistols are now either revolvers or magazine fed automatics."
Two things - one note they state that most now are revolvers or mag fed autos - which would be correct in part since the word was first used in the late 16th century when hand guns were matchlocks or wheellocks. On the other hand they also use the term "magazine fed automatic" when in fact most pistols of that type are not automatic, but are technically semi-automatic. (note no change over that period of 51 years)

Last, but far from least - both my 1929 and the current OED (Oxford English Dictionary) unabridged editions, considered by scholars to be the authority on the English language, describes pistol as:  "a small firearm designed to be held in one hand." They do not designate further.

So in a historical sense, as others have noted, as well as per dictionaries other than the most recent Webster's editions (I also looked it up in a few others which match the OED - I found that only Webster's separates the two types of handguns) ,  ER is in fact correct in his usage of the word pistol.

Thus to paraphrase Mr. Shakespeare - "I think perhaps you doth protest to much.........." Of course as always others mileage WILL vary...........

BTW - ER, a good friend and neighbor, is off enjoying himself this week at the SASS convention in Las Vegas - I doubt he'd be too concerned one way or the other...........he'd probably mutter something    and shake his head in wonder     

[Deadeye Don]

Fairshake,   Are you sure you meant to post this here or perhaps were you aiming for the SASS Wire instead?

[Stump Water]

The points about Clint is just what I was talking about. A person on a national stage reaches alot of people and what he says goes on record as being correct.

Given the time period which the movie was set, Mr. Eastwood's use of the word "pistols" in The Outlaw Josey Wales is, in fact, correct... as Major 2 and Delmonico have pointed out.

[Jefro]

Howdy, I meant jumped on in a funning way and not like a serious thing. Camile also mistook what I said, maybe y'all didn't have your mind reading sections turned on. As far as the word weapon, every school that I've been to in my 61 years used that term. Gentleman, holster,bench or groung your weapon. That is the term I was taught and will not change to be politically correct.

Howdy Fairshake, no offense intended, I used the buggeyed guy the tounge and LOL , if they had a tounge in cheek I would have used it . As for the weapon or firearm, my first big shoot was the Carolina Belles Bust Out. Since Heather and myself were fairly new to SASS, we decided to take the introductory course taught by two well known NRA instructors. One of the first things they did was hold up a revolver and ask "what is this?". At least one person replied "weapon". Thats when they explained it was only a firearm. A few years before that I took my CCW course. The NRA instructor was a retired state trooper. One of the first things he did was hold up his SW revolver and ask "what is this?". Again an explination of why it was no more of a weapon than a baseball bat untill used as such. Anyway ,that's what I been taught so far, but I'm just a youngin (54) with plenty to learn And nobody hates PC more than me , so I would never try to change your way of thikin.

Best Regards
Jefro Relax-Enjoy