Reply to Litl Rooster primer problem.

[Grapeshot]

Litl Rooster posted that his "primers backing out....need help."

So, as not to  hijack a thread let me interject here.  I shoot warthog loads, and will until I can't tolerate the recoil, so any load reference is strictly what my guns will tolerate.  I do not recommend them for anyone.

I used to shoot a pair of Remington 1875's in .44-40 with spare cylinders chambered in .44 Special.  I fired both .44 Russian and .44 Colt in these guns.  All my black powder cartridges were modified by drilling the flash hole out to 3/32nds of an inch and using Magnum Large Pistol Primers.

I normally loaded APP, Pyrodex P, or Goex fffg as well as 777 in these cases.  All, except the 777, were filled to within 1/32nd of an inch of the case mouth and compressed using a separate compression die.  I was using a Lyman 240 grain RN to duplicate the original .44 Russian and Lyman's .44caliber, 240 grain Cowboy bullet in the .44 Colt to duplicate the Remington .44 load.

The .44 Russian loads were mild compared to the .44 Colt loads.  The report and concussion were impressive every time I touched those loads off.  All during this time I never had any primer back out, in fact they all appeared to have flattened out against the recoil plate. 

For what's it worth, you might have to change the firing pin on those open tops like I had to with mine.  Too many pierced primers with the factory ones.  My loads with my Open Top was not as stiff as the loadings in my Remingtons, but I never had any backed out primers with the open top using a heavy bullet and the 1.0 cc dipper of BP.

[Hoof Hearted]

I have experienced this problem, albeit not in a repro open top. My experience with many original conversions is the same. Not wanting to modify the pistols themselves, most have "cooperated" by drilling out the flash holes in the cases and using "hard" magnum primers, just as Grapeshot has suggested. Of course the mainspring tension must be enough to reliably ignite them.

I always attributed this phenomenon to differences in the construction of current (not original to the period of the firearm) primers and brass. It is also my feeling that chamber/brass/die specs have changed over the last 100 to 150 years. Then there is the (what I deem to be) excessive freebore in shooting short rounds in these chambers.

Not to say that lil Rooster's firing pins, recoil shields, headspace, etceteras aren't all playing a roll here either.

Prudent testing of all of these things will yield a solution.

Good luck on ya!

[Mako]

Litl Rooster posted that his "primers backing out....need help."
For what's it worth, you might have to change the firing pin on those open tops like I had to with mine.  Too many pierced primers with the factory ones. 

Grapeshot,
I have to agree whole heartedly about the firing pins.  If it weren't for the fact there are so many problems with them I might entertain other theories but in this case "Ockham's razor" applies...

Happy Thanksgiving,
Mako (who's hiding from the Wimen Folk in the house)

[Mako]

Grapeshot,
Now about drilling your holes out in the brass, does that help you?  I am very interested in your experience with this.  I have read some very old articles about this and people also resorting to Magnum Primers.  I use standards and have never had a problem, but I don't think I compress my powder as much as you do in cartridges. Is this the reason you have done that?

I compress my powder about 1/10 to 1/8 of an inch on all of my loads now.  That's the reason I sometimes use .44 Russian, if I want a lighter load I go to a shorter case.  I believe in compression and heavy crimps, it gives me reliability and less fouling.

I normally shoot percussion revolvers as my main match pistols and have done what most serious percussion shooters have done, we switched the tubes to Tresos.  These have a smaller flash hole and it promotes three things:

• Cleaner hammer tract and actions
• Less cap fragmentation
• Cleaner tubes. I believe dirty tubes are the #2 cause of cap pistols not going off, cap fragments in the action or under the hammer is #1.

Now with a percussion revolver we get a LOT of gas coming back through the hole.  You see the same thing with your cartridge guns which the flattened primers are a testament to.  You can get away with it because your flash channel is sealed on the back by the primer cup. With my percussion revolvers I use a cylinder loader and I compress the powder very tight and very consistently, it's one of the reasons my shooting friends can attest that I rarely have problems (and I mean rarely).  The guys shooting Frontier Cartridge are usually jealous.  All this being said a #10 Remington primer sets off a highly compressed 28 or 30 grain loads every single time with very consistent ignition.  I shoot 28 for normal targets and 30 for knock downs, I probably don't need 30, but I don't want any excuse for not toppling a target.

Have you ever done any controlled or even hap-hazard experiments pitting large and small holes against each other?  This is really interesting, and I am sincerely interested in learning something new.

Once again Happy Thanksgiving,
Mako (who's gonna have to move his position the Wimen have begun to look for me...)

[litl rooster]

Thanks again for the rplies...


Mako do they want you to do the dishes?

[w44wcf]

Grapeshot has an excellent idea to try.   Fortunately, the only time I have had I had to drill flash holes out to 3/32 was when I was shooting some plastic & wax bullets w/no powder.

w44wcf

[Mako]

Thanks again for the rplies...


Mako do they want you to do the dishes?

Much worse!!!

I have to sit and listen about Wimen things...

I am surrounded by wimen, all sisters, no brothers, no male cousins, my kids are all girls.  I don't even tell the brother in laws and nephews where I hide.

Actually we usually end up in the shop, I make the boys load until they get tired then I send them on their way.

~Mako (who survived another year, but they are still here and you can tell where I am right now)