Well, I've seen just about everything now.

[Mako]

If ya use a .45 ACP sizer and expander (not Colt), and a taper crimp with a bit of authority (but still enough there to headspace on the rim), neck tension will hold em.

Jack,
I'm not bragging, but I I have literally shot hundreds of thousands of rounds of .45 ACP (no exaggeration) not to mention .38 Super and .40 S&W through 1911 pattern pistols.  But...I have my doubts.  I also never use anything other than an ACP die set when reloading that caliber, so I'm not sure about the advisement to use said die set.

I was involved with some experimentation a few years back with compressed loads in .45 ACP and a forerunner of the .45 GAP cartridge.  Had problems with bullets backing out of taper crimped loads under recoil. These were loaded on a Dillon 1050 with the seating die being moved to station 6, crimper on 7 and a custom resize die on station 8. You can't use a standard sizing die because it over-compresses the case and bullet.  The case springs back, the bullet doesn't and you get a loose crimp.  I also used custom resizers on my XL650 for revolver loads at #5 until I switched to Lee Factory Crimp Dies last year.  You can get almost any of the die manufacturers to make them just tell them you want loaded round resizing rings.  An auto pistol round lives and dies by a good crimp that correctly sets head space.

We tried everything to get a crimp that was reliable, with and without final resizing to get rid of bulges from the compressed loads.  I will say this though, smokeless powder doesn't compress like the Holy Black, BP breaks up and compresses well.  When you pull a compressed smokeless load it isn't clumped and in a compressed mass like BP.  Finally ended up using Bullet and Primer sealer and rolling cannalures on jacketed bullets before insertion.  With Lead bullets we just painted it on at the grease groove.  This seemed to work, but it was TOO MUCH work.  Had a friend ask me about Trail Boss in .45 ACP last year, said something about compressed loads and I almost screamed "NO!!!" Anyway He said he was going to try some light compression, I told him that might work.

Jack, if you put one of your taper crimped loads in an inertia puller and figure out how much force you need to pull a bullet and then repeat that test with a heavy roll crimp, or even a medium crimp (probably even a light roll crimp) you will find you can never dislodge the bullet if you use the same strike force as you did for the taper crimp. 

Good ignition, clean burning and reliability with BP requires good crimps.  If you look in the barrel of my percussion pistols they will always be dirtier than my cartridge guns shooting similar loads.  Getting the max amount of powder isn't my goal, getting reliable BP loads that have the least amount of fouling possible is.  Having said all of that I will attempt to get as much powder as I can in the case that meets those conditions.  It might be closer to 19 than 18, but I'll say now based on experience that I doubt it.

I appreciate your post and any insight you can give me, please don't take this response as me unloading on you.

Regards and Happy Thanksgiveing to you and all of yours,
Mako

[Adirondack Jack]

Pard, I hear ya with the HOT stuff, especially in light guns, I really do.  I know for example some titanium revolvers in .45 want ya to run nothing heavier than a 200, but that's with warm smokeless loads and a light gun.  But I really can't wrap my head around this with a 200 grainer driven by BLACK!  I just don't see how it is gonna have bullets back out under recoil?  I can't imagine 17 or 18 grains BP developing sufficient recoil impulse to pull bullets.  BP is such a gentle "push" compared to hot smokeless stuff that I can't see it.  How could ya even begin to shoot a Walker or Dragoon if that was the case?  Maybe, but I can't imagine it.

[Mako]

Pard, I hear ya with the HOT stuff, especially in light guns, I really do.  I know for example some titanium revolvers in .45 want ya to run nothing heavier than a 200, but that's with warm smokeless loads and a light gun.  But I really can't wrap my head around this with a 200 grainer driven by BLACK!  I just don't see how it is gonna have bullets back out under recoil?  I can't imagine 17 or 18 grains BP developing sufficient recoil impulse to pull bullets.  BP is such a gentle "push" compared to hot smokeless stuff that I can't see it.  How could ya even begin to shoot a Walker or Dragoon if that was the case?  Maybe, but I can't imagine it.

Jack,
I apologize, I must not be explaining it well,  but I think you are missing my point...but I have found the bullets moving out has less to do with recoil than with too much powder in the case to be able to get it compressed and not having to fight to keep the bullet from being pushed back out.  Recoil just is the impetuous to move the entire cartridge in the magazine fore and aft and cause an already precarious hold on an over-stuffed cartridge to let it slip.  In my experience even 18 grains is a compressed load, it exerts some pressure on the base of the bullet.  If the bullet moves forward then you have a less than reliable round for feeding.  It's all about feeding.  This isn't just an experiment just to put some BP in a .45 ACP case make it go bang and call it good, it is an attempt to make a match reliable load.

I don't think a dragoon or a walker with 40 to 60 grains of powder is equivalent to a 1911.  Isn't that comparing  Apples to Oranges?  Neither revolver has to feed a round from a magazine, neither one has to deal with a slide impulse.  Bullets do move forward in a percussion revolver.  I have pictures somewhere of balls being set forward in Army models by recoil along with the measurements taken with a caliper to record the movement forward.  I was told it happened, I didn't fully believe it because I use a cylinder loader to compress the ball and powder charge.  I no longer use .451 balls because of it.  A ball or bullet in a cylinder is much like a taper crimp, nothing to keep it in place but the walls.  Once the ball is pressed in there is no hoop stress on it, it is merely friction.  I switched from .451 to .454  because you get  a larger engagement band as the periphery is sheared at insertion.  I can also tell you the slipping gets worse as the cylinder gets fouled.  More fouling equaled more slippage in my tests.  The same is true of a taper crimp, it only has friction to keep it in place.  A roll crimp is a different animal, it has a mechanical grip on the bullet.

Have you ever used a Colt .22LR conversion unit on a 1911, the felt recoil impulse isn't created solely by the 37 grain bullet.  Most of the impulse is created by the slide moment. The conversion unit was designed to mimic the recoil of a standard .45 load.  Of course it doesn't completely, but it has a recoil impulse greater than any other .22  I have every had the opportunity to shoot. A short recoil action semi-automatic is a dynamic recoil platform by its very nature.  We are not talking 4 lb 9 ounce horse pistols here... So why don't .45 ACP rounds with an HG68 or a Hornady 200 gr FMJSWC and 5.7 gr of W231 move forward?  That's because there isn't any base pressure trying to push the bullet out.  I have seen  bullet movement with compressed loads (definitely not W231). The same velocity with a different powder, In my experience no compression equals no movement.   I have found compressed loads are a problem with .45 ACP , the 11.5 X 19mm and the .45 HP rounds using smokeless powders as well.  You run into compression issues with cartridges shorter than the .45 ACP.

I've decided to move beyond 200 grain bullets.  I'm going to use a 225 or 230 in this load because I need the initial recoil impulse to assure reliability.  Lighter bullets are not the direction to head when reliability and a low initial impulse are already a factor.

I'm not meaning to be disrespectful.  I don't know you except for your forays into the areas of the .45 Special and such.  I've shot a match with a 1911 using BP (not a Cowboy match, but against a bunch of hotrod limited class pistols), and I now intend to do it some more, this time on a more even playing field with Wild Bunch shooters. 
No disrespect intended on any account.

Have a nice Thanksgiving
~Mako

[Frenchie]

Back to the original topic, it makes me think of what my brother the master machinist says when someone says something can't be done: "Hide somewhere close by and watch me."

[Mako]

Back to the original topic, it makes me think of what my brother the master machinist says when someone says something can't be done: "Hide somewhere close by and watch me."

So very true...
~Mako

[Wills Point Pete]

 I've been thinkin' about the market for this strange shootin' iron. I finally figured that it is either a gift for the man who has everything or a way to entice someone who has spent a lifetime mastering John Browning's square gun over to the darkside.
I can see that, I know lots of guys that can't shoot a revolver after spending years with the 1911. By the same token I started mastering the DA revolver's long trigger pull and I can't shoot a 1911 for sour apples. I even went to one of those expensive shooting schools once. Funny, when that vacation was over and I strapped on my service revolver I discover that I couldn't hardly shoot it. It took two months of twice a week practice plus PPC matches to get my DA pull back.
Lucklly the Dept let me keep my .357 when they switched to the autoloaders. Today, though, there are a lot of forty year old lifetime shooters that have never fired a revolver.