shooting the open top??

[Will Penny]

I have 3 open tops, 1872 in 38 Cal. I just can not keep all 3 working at the same time, seems like something is always breaking..last night I was snapping snap caps and the bolt broke in one of them, just got through replacing the hand in another..I'm lucky sometimes if I can finish a 6 station match with the same 2 guns I started with..my question is,,,,Am I expecting to much out of these guns..I usually run 150 shots a month through each of them, providing they do not break, is that to much to expect, I'm shooting 158 GR LRNFP with 17 grains of FFFG black powder in them soon to go to all snakebites for the lube factor..I sure don't want to go to the modern looking Rugers, but if I would like to be able to depend on these guns a little more then what I can right now..any ideas, suggestions would be welcome..except go to Rugers, can't abide with that.

[Roosterman]

You're probably not holding your tongue right when you're shooting a match.

[Major 2]

that is got to be it....

I 've shot maybe 1000 through each of mine ( no wait the newest R&M about 5 boxes )
Now that gun is going to Long Hunter but not because it needs to, I just want it as slick as the other Rishards are after
time & use has slicked them.

[Will Penny]

You're probably not holding your tongue right when you're shooting a match.

Thanks for the help, I'll try to rember that

[Rusty Spurless]

If they are breaking then odds are they are tempered to hard.

Heat the bolt to red hot with a propane torch. It needs to be a bright cherry red then quench it in oil. Heat it again till it starts to turn a straw color & then set it aside & let it cool.

During the heat to straw watch it closely, small parts heat fast.

[Fox Creek Kid]

...and the bolt broke in one of them.

A leg broke off the bolt or the bolt spring broke?

[Grogan]

Wow!

Those ARE some major reliability issues aren't they?!!

I have a .44 Open Top.  I've never used it in a match and in fact haven't fired it all that much. 

I bought it pretty much just because I liked the Open Top and its history and wanted to enjoy shooting one (plus I got a "great" deal on it from another pard )

Mine's a Uberti, and while I know there can be issues with the Firing Pins on these, I wasn't aware that the entire revolver might suffer from this sort of  major reliability problems.

But then on the other hand, if you wanted to compare them against Ruger Old Armys, I doubt they're even in the same league.

How do you spell BULLET PROOF?!!

[Will Penny]

A leg broke off the bolt or the bolt spring broke?

a leg broke off the bolt, sorry guess I should have said that, sorry..I had a bolt for it and got it fitted and tested, seems to be ok, the timeing is right on, have no idea why it broke, broke right at the hole for the screw to pass through...I'm thinking of sending them off this winter for a complete action job on all 3 of them, what do you think of that idea??

[Hoof Hearted]

Will

I do a bunch of Colt Single Action work. Breaking the leg off on the cam side of the bolt happens. Doesn't matter which firearm it is (SAA, 51, 60, 71/72, etc) it happens. I have a parts drawer with about 30 broken ones in it (yea, I know, why am I keeping them). Good idea for you to have some spare parts (contact VTI) and to make sure that they are all in good tune. Nonte's book would be good reading for you, in the long run you'll be better off learning to do the small stuff yourself.

Good luck on ya!
HH

[Flint]

72 Uberti Opentops have been my main match guns for a couple years, as well as several other shooters I know.  Some Posses here in Arizona will have three or four shooters with Opentops.  The only problems we seem to have is the firing pin, fixed by a Smith Shop Pin, or mine, (I make my own from music wire stock).  I installed Ruger coil & plunger hand springs in both, as well, as the Italians seem to have a problem making springs.

I use a Wolff mainspring and trigger/bolt (flat) spring.  Though the wire spring works, it is "soft" and I prefer the crisper flat spring, and the one made by Wolff doesn't break near as often as Uberti's does, and I haven't broken one in three years.

As for holding up, the gun is pretty solid, the steel is good.  There are no Cap & Ball parts in the gun, they are all modern hard steel.  I have had no major component break in many thousands of rounds, mostly 44 Russian, but I shoot 38 and 45 Schofield also on the same frames.  The firing pin as Uberti makes it is too thin and long, so it pierces primers.  A harder, slightly shorter, more conical and less sharp firing pin, driven by a lighter mainspring solves most problems.

[Fox Creek Kid]

...as the Italians seem to have a problem making springs.

Big ten four there. Flint, have you ever tried the old trick of heating the base of the flat hand spring with flame until it just starts to turn color? I had an ol' SAA expert 'smith show me that trick and it sure worked. DO NOT quench, but rather let air cool. The spring is still in that Open Top gun and feels like it did day one. 

[Will Penny]

Thanks for the help and the advice guys, lot better then  "holding my tongue wrong",,,I was lucky enough to have had a extra bolt on hand and will be ordering another spare soon..I'm interested in the after market springs, may have to try them, I do have a small assortment of parts on hand now, had to replace a hand and hammer not to long ago on one of them so I did order a few other parts, I also have on hand a hardened firing pin that I got from VTI  so far I have not had to use it... I never really shot any pistols until last April and I kind of jumped in with both feet, really enjoy it, really enjoy the black powder aspect of it also being a old muzzle-loader shooter for years and years...new fangled guns are different to me but I'm learning. I did add a spacer to the arbor and opened the barrel to cylinder to .006 for better clearance,,,any other ideas that will help me with my pet projects would be appreciated very much..

[Montana Slim]

I have a pair of R-Ms and a single OT.
All were used when I got them (5-6 years ago?), all are .44 and I shoot BP .44 Russian.
So far, one bolt/trigger spring "gave up the ghost" on a R-M. It failed this summer and I dropped in a DGW generic replacement I had in the parts drawer and it works perfectly.

I probably don't average more than 200 rds through each in a season, as I like my C&B 1860's equally well.
My Uberti 1860's haven't had any parts replaced yet (2+ years of heavy use). My Pietta's get an annual PM checkup and parts replaced as I deem appropriate (before failure).

I do however shoot duelist. This may be a factor.

Regards,
Slim

[Pony Racer]

I shoot OT's exclusively and never had a problem with either my 38 spl RM 51's or my 44 russian 1872s.

My 1851 Cap and Ball guns converted with R&D kits finally had a hiccup after 3 years of heavy use.  I am having a gusmith go through them thoroughly to do a full check up on parts - since some of the springs and hands were still original to the C&B guns.

The funny thing is I had no misses last match and the only clue that something was not quite right was that the cylinders spun a bit too freely on half cock.  When I cleaned them up afterwards - I realized the problem.

The 1872's did have full action jobs on them with new firing pins before I ever shot them.

I shoot 1.33cc's of FFFG under a 158 grain Parson Pill in 38 Spl.

I shoot 1.3cc's of FFFG under a 205 grain Parson Pill in the 44 Russian.

PR

[Major 2]

Longevity is relative...  I have a Colt 1860 Army Second Gen I bought NIB in 1978-9
I have used it heavily for 28 years of reenacting, shooting live and living history events..
About 3 years ago I installed an R&D cylinder and now shoot 45 Schofield through it.
In all those years, I only had two trigger springs break. I replaced the first with a Colt made SAA spring it failed about 5 or six years later.
The present spring is a VTI replacement, today the gun (still my favorite) has earned honored backup status to my Richards.
But it sill shoots well and is as tight as the day I brought it home.
Though the Blue Finish is worn to a gray patina.

[Coffinmaker]

Will Penny

Well ................ your experience is not quite typical.  I have been shooting '72 Open Tops as my main match guns (Gunfighter) for the past 7 years.  My guns have also had .38 cylinder/barrels and .44 cylinder/barrels added (they were manufactured as .45 Schofield) and I average 4 matches per mont plus about 5 3 day matches per year.  I shoot them allot.  Thousands of rounds.  I also build up '72s for customers as main match guns, and once set up, they are as tough as any other SA save a Ruger (tank).
"Set up" is operative.  The guns need to be properly timed, all the burrs taken out of the frame and raceways and then dump the factory springs.  The factory main spring is from a Ford F150 overload pack and the trigger/bolt spring isn't far behind.  If you don't want to grind your own spring, I recommend the "Lee's Gunsmithing" "Gunslinger" spring pack from Brownells.  Very linear compression with almost no stacking of spring resistance.  The kit includes the only wire T/B spring I might be tempted to use.  I don't personally like wire springs.  Mushy.  I normally use the Pietta T/B spring in my action jobs.  Nice and light with a "snappy" feel.
Trigger Bolt springs and Hand springs break.  Bolts break.  They are the Achilles heal of the SA.  That said, I've only broken two T/B springs, one hand spring and one bolt in all the years I have shot my '72s.  Your milage may very.
I do NOT recommend the '72 Open Top in .45 as the cylinder walls are just too thin.  The will pass proof, but "just," Usually the .45s spit the little piece of steel out of the bottom of the cylinder locking bolt slots.  Makes me nervous.  If you have access to a good SA plumber, have them set up "right" and they should run for years trouble free.

Coffinmaker

[Paladin UK]

Fer Fox Creek Kid .....

......heating the base of the flat hand spring with flame until it just starts to turn color?

What are ya callin the `base`    is it the underside, the fingers (The 2 sticky out bits) or the round hole bit 

Paladin (What needs ta know ) UK

[Fox Creek Kid]

The base is where the end of the hand spring meets (inserted into) the hand itself.