OT C&B Platforms - Who's better now?

[W.T.]

Hello the Fire.

Recently had some valuable info from our colleague Rifle about the Pietta vs Uberti platforms, which is better out of the box, and why.  Rifle provided my first education as to the geometry and important points about OTs, how the basic manufacturing techniques affect out-of-the-box shootabilty, and what sort of fixes need to be made.

Because I'd always been a diehard Uberti type, I was interested to hear his opinion about the reported tightening-up of Pietta's standards.  Thought I'd pass on what he had to say; these are baseline issues that I never thought about much in my haste to acquire good-looking - as opposed to good shooting - C&Bs:

Piettas? What I know, just an opinion, is that Uberti makes nice guns and the thing that makes them nice is they don't have the writing stamped on the sides of the barrel.

Compare Pietta to Uberti? Pietta has the machining done where the arbor is bottomed in the arbor hole of the barrel with the bottom lug of the barrel a mere .001 or .002 in. away from the frame probably for future break in or seat in. That makes the gun more stable and sets the cylinder gap properly. It takes some careful machining. That makes me choose the Pietta.

That and the fact the Pietta has chamber-to-barrel groove diameter size closer to equal like the target guns of Pedersoli and Ruger and others. That sizes the balls to fit the barrels better so they shoot better. They aren't optimum since the chambers are still under size but they are closer to optimum than Uberti.

Couple that with the fact the Piettas have rifling grooves a little shallower for the balls to get to the bottom of the rifling grooves.  Unlike Uberti (36s don't like the deeper grooves like the .010 depth in Uberti) Pietta is .006, so Piettas shoot more accurate.

The specs in the arbor fit, chamber size, and groove depth are better than Ubertis, just from what I've seen. I haven't studied a random sampling of guns in the hundreds or thousands. You know all the Italian guns have a quality control problem; a person has to know what to look for when buying and when to send back or not buy guns with the tolerances screwed up.  Just gotta look em over well. 

One thing to look for that can't be readily seen is the shape of the barrel and whether or not the barrel has tight spots in it or loose spots at the muzzle. The friggin barrels aren't the best but I think Piettas have generally bettter bores. There's always the chance the barrels have tight spots that will screw accuracy and they need to be lapped out. It ain't real easy to do that the proper way, either. I just did a Euroarms Rodgers and Spencer yesterday and it took hours and hours. Getting the tight spots out of the barrels really helps tighten the groups and makes the guns shoot much better.  Buying the Piettas that have a better chance at having a good barrel makes sense.

Hope this give you some food for thought if you are thinking about buying a gun. Either way, Uberti or Pietta, the base or core is there to set up a decent shooting cap&baller. Colt wise. Getting a Remington instad of a Colt makes more sense actually. Euroarms are pretty good I hear. Piettas are good I know. From what I hear the Ubertis don't perform as well as the others and it's probably the dang chambers too undersized and a mere chamber reaming would fix that. They all could use the chamber reaming. I think Euroarms is the best out of the box if I'm thinking right.  One thing people don't seem to catch on to.....the Pietta antique finished guns have rifling grooves that are shallow, as they should be, and the chambers are sized right at the groove diameter of the barrels so....they propably would be the best shooters out of the box without any gunsmithing done. They already have the specs for shooting good as they come out of the box.

[Riot Earp]

"Rifle" (Wayne) is a Pietta man. Uberti men will give you an equally strong argument, and will mention things like quality of steel, functional longevity, and historical accuracy. Both companies make decent guns.

[W.T.]

Why, shoot; I always thought he was a Belgian Colts Army man.

[will52100]

I personaly prefere the Uberti over the Pietta, but that's more from past experiances of getting crap.  Soft internals, rough bores, cylinders out of alighnment, oversized bolt chewing up cylinders, the list goes on.  Overall the best Pietta I've had is worse than the worst Uberti I've had and took more to get it working rite.  That said I found this site and it looks interesting and I may have to give it a try.  http://www.bpstuffllc.com/customersguns.htm

As to accuracy, I get very good accuracy out of my Uberti's, but I do have a 51' Pietta that is amazingly accurate.  If there just wasnt' so much else wrong from the factory.

I've heard Pietta has gotten there act together, and from what I've seen of there cartrige 73' it looks like they have, it must be that I haven't had the opertunity to get one of there newer cap guns.

Take your pick and throw the dice, most often both require a little work.

[Alabama]

Since the topic is " which is better now for Open Top platforms " .........
My vote is neither . 
Reading between those lines you'll figure out that both are decent , pick whichever " YOU " like better . Both are very good guns , especially most of the samples of recent production run Piettas I have bought , and I have bought alot .
Uberti makes fine guns in my opinion too . Trigger pulls are undesputible that Uberti's are better than Piettas 90% of the time . But the price of Piettas are cheaper because of it . If your a Gunsmith then that's not a problem and equals out in price honing up your triggers to match Ubertis . But , having said that , I have gotten four recent Piettas that the triggers are very nice , and the 1873 trigger in thier current production run on the BP model is EXCELLENT , as good or better than any Uberti I own , and I own alot . And my firends , that is saying allot about a trigger pull ! Because anyone that ownes a Uberti knows how nice the current production run trigger pulls are  They are target grade sweet  My 3rd Model Dragoon from Uberti has a trigger pull that is equal to my Dan Wesson and almost as good as my Springfield Armory .45 Match Pistol . And that is out of the box , stock Uberti , very fine .
So it boils down to are you good enough to do your own trigger work for your open top platform , if you need too that is on a Pietta now ?
Other than that , I think Uberti and Pietta are a toss up nowadays , because of price defference . I also do not find one outshoots the other either anymore . Some of my Piettas will outshoot my Uberti's in different designs , models etc, but it works equally the other way around with Uberti in particular guns too over some of my Piettas .
I am NOT a Pietta or Uberti die-hard fan , I love them both for equal reasons but not the same reasons on either guns . Piettas Case hardening colors are much nicer than Ubertis I find though . I owne enough to have excellent comparitive here too and its fact not fiction there . I do think most of Uberti guns have nicer finish though as far as SMOOTH goes , but price dictates that now doesn't it ! 
But having said that , Piettas nicer guns , the 1873's , the Old Silver Engraved , and of course the" Nicest " open top they make the LeMat are absolutely stunning in PRETTY . But , price is pretty too 
Compairing the 73 Pietta to my 73 Uberti there is no compairison really . Pietta hands down makes a nicer 73 . They even bevel the cylinder and this is a gun that is $100 or more cheaper . Enough said ?
I do agree it is a crap shoot out there to get good specimens of either though . But, both companies are reasonably dependable as far as quality control goes now and Pietta has gotten much better recently , again , not fiction , fact !
Also to take into consideration is both companies offer guns that the other doesn't have, so you kinda have to buy both to get all you want also . Example , the 63 Remington , no Uberti , only Pietta . The Old Silver Engraved , Pietta only . The LeMat , the finest Open Top period hands down , only Pietta . The true model LONDON Navy , only Uberti .
So it is a toss up to me and neither win the open top which is better platform debate . If I go just pretty it would be handsdown Pietta , but only because of the nicer quality higher end guns they make .
If I went which open top shoots better ? Thats a hard one for me ? Both out perform eachother in different models, so there you go ! So the land groove issue don't hold much validity to me here as far as Piettas being better , because it just aint so as far as science goes in the guns , especially side by side accuracy tests of both guns . My Pietta 1861 Navy will not outshoot my 1851 Navy Uberti , but my Uberti 3rd Model Dragoon will outshoot either . But my Old Silver Pietta 58 will outshoot some of my Uberti 58's , but not others , So the groove thing isn't valid in my opinion . You may think it is , but in reality it don't mean squwatt untill you actually prove that to me on targets . I have already proved that to be unsubstansiated on my targets . Also , target grade guns generally use deeper rifling grooves , ever wonder why ? Pretty simple math there .
Shallow makes better accruracy ? Huh ? That makes NO sence to me ? I can understand GAIN twist proggression being very good , but shallow makes for better accruracy ? Come again  I think picking the right sized ball or bullet and right hardness of lead and right load of powder is what is more important . Throw any two completely different cylinders seperate into either make gun and your ballistics change and you are starting over finding loads and balls to fit right for the set-up anyway , unless they MIC out the exact same in the chambers .  It isn't just about LAND-Groove, it's about chamber size too . When you sprew , you just created a flat sided wadcutter with a round base , fact . If you don't sprew , you'll never get great accuracy because of loss of pressure to expand your bullet or a chamber seal either which can very well create less than good results    If your cylinders are bigger than your barrel land-groove then you also need to find a load to expand the bullet enough to work in your gun too . Neither make I have found to be better than one or the other that way . Each gun is different , neither are science . Pietta shallower, yes . More accurate because of it ? Not in my experience , especially accross the board , definately not so .
Oh and there is Euroarms ! Better than either Pietta or Uberti out of the box . But , having said that , they cost more too . There Rogers and Spencers are TACK DRIVERS , litterally . 
Which is a better platform ? NONE !
My Dogs better than your dog is what it boils down to , or your like me and realize both are good , neither are better , and some are better than others in either make . Some people say that Uberti makes harder parts ? Do you have a hardness tester showing this with pics for me , yet ? They both get proofed by Italy , so they both have to be to a certain hardness to pass , period . The componants do not , but I have not noticed a difference in either make of my guns saying one is softer than the other . Once again i will need to see this prooved to me with pics before I beleive it . I have noticed no difference in wear on either make , so I question the valididty of that too , unless you can proove it to me .
The final note is the writing on the barrels ? I don't mind makers marks, proof marks , etc on my guns. I even prefer they have caliber designation marks actually , although they should be .45 and and so on . I don't like the BP only writing though . I realize it is for safety and for people that would actually try to load modern powder in one , but wouldn't that problem correct itself 

Alabama

[W.T.]

Yeah, but intelligent discourse on the subject such as your own and Rifle's is what makes the game so interesting, ain't it!  And we all benefit from your insight.

My purpose in posing the question was to determine how much benchwork - generally speaking - would be required to settle either brand down.  I just read through a sticky over on TOR about the generalities of both: man says that overall, the arbors on Piettas bottom-out in their holes correctly, but that the bolt slots usually need work, while on Ubertis, the arbors don't quite bottom right, but the bolt slots are usually deep and square.  Then he shows how to fix both.

Those sticky posts kinda answered the question for me - Pietta has improved the other aspects of their guns, and can always be de-farbed.  So I believe I'll go looking for my first Pietta.  I am blessed in that Taylor's is about 90 minutes bike ride from me, and I can look some specimens over in person...

[Alabama]

Yeh but W.T ,
the most important part of this threade is , what bike do you ride !!!!  LOL !!!!

PS..... The Gals at Taylors are great to deal with in my experience . I have always gotten phenominal customer service from them and they are very Polite too , big plus to me . They always return my e-mails promptly ( frequent flier  ) . Although they rarely have allot of the guns on thier webiste in stock lately . I think that is a Uberti problem not Pietta issue there too though , as per normal . Good luck on whatever you get ! Happy shootin 

Alabama

[W.T.]

Yeh but W.T ,
the most important part of this threade is , what bike do you ride !!!!  LOL !!!!

Well in fact, I ride an '08 Vespa GTS 250ie. Did a big loop today: I-66 - US  29 - VA 11/211 - 11 - I-81 - I-66: N. Central VA to the Shenandoah Nat'l Forest to the Page Valley, through New Market Pass, up the Valley 11 to Strasburg, I-81 N to I-66 and home.

PS..... The Gals at Taylors are great to deal with in my experience . I have always gotten phenominal customer service from them and they are very Polite too , big plus to me . They always return my e-mails promptly ( frequent flier  ) . Although they rarely have allot of the guns on thier webiste in stock lately . I think that is a Uberti problem not Pietta issue there too though , as per normal . Good luck on whatever you get ! Happy shootin 

Alabama

They are wonderful to customers who stop by - and true, their logistics problems all orginate in Italy.  Taylor's is aces with me.

[Major 2]

"Well in fact, I ride an '08 Vespa GTS 250ie. Did a big loop today: I-66 - US  29 - VA 11/211 - 11 - I-81 - I-66: N. Central VA to the Shenandoah Nat'l Forest to the Page Valley, through New Market Pass, up the Valley 11 to Strasburg, I-81 N to I-66 and home."


I'm very jealous, that is beautiful country... I want to join you when I get my bike....

My hope is to do the Auto Train with the bike one day.
The Auto Train operates every day of the year non-stop between Sanford, Florida and Lorton, Virginia.
A friend and his wife did it a few years ago ...loved it.

and I 100% agree about the gals at Taylor's both Tammy & Sue

[W.T.]

Oh, shoot, Roger, Autotrain ain't no way to go. Ride that pup up here...tell ya what: I'll meet up with you in Asheville.

[Alabama]

Off topic but its your threade !!!!

Sounds like a nice ride in the fall  I know, I have done it , seen it too , all over the place ....The South is beautiful this time of year , and is the North .
Probably pretty fun on those little bikes am sure  The Harley likes it too 


Alabama

[Dakota Widowmaker]

The 3 things I have found that make the biggest difference to whether a gun is a good shooter:

1) bolt hand to cylinder fit.
If its bad, you can't really do much except get a new bolt and custom fit it.

2) timing
bad timing is a recipe for a bad day at the range.

3) barrel-cylinder gap
too much is not good. too little is not good enough. just right makes it a good day.
I find that a light bit of touch up with a 400grit stone helps. Then, follow up with just a cloth bit on the end of my dremel and some flitz. This trick ONLY works with Colts.